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Sa paglulunsad ng bitcoin bilang ligal na tender sa El Salvador, mayroong ilang mga alalahanin sa privacy patungkol kay Chivo, ang pitaka na nai-sponsor ng gobyerno kung saan ang lahat ng mga mamamayan ay inisyu ng $ 30 sa bitcoin. Kung mas gusto ng mga Salvador na hindi masubaybayan ng kanilang gobyerno ang kanilang mga transaksyon, kritikal na pipiliin nilang gumamit ng iba pang mga wallet ng Lightning Network, tulad ng Muun o Breeze sa halip.
sa labas ng Chivo Wallet sa isa pang channel, lahat na nakaharap sa gumagamit, tulad ng mga Lightning wallets doon, magiging pribadong mga channel sila,”sabi ni Shinobi, sa isang pag-uusap sa Bitcoin Magazine Twitter Spaces tungkol sa paksa.”Hindi mo malalaman kung nasaan ang UTXO na iyon, nang walang maraming pagsusuri sa on-chain, pagtingin sa counter party, at kung mayroon silang anumang pondo na nasara at marahil ay sinamahan ng iba pang mga tanikala. Iyon ay dapat na saklaw ang batayan para sa karamihan ng mga tao, nag-aalala lamang tungkol sa gobyerno na makita kung saan pupunta ang pera na iyon.”
kung paano dapat harapin ng mga mangangalakal ang pagtanggap ng mga transaksyon sa zeroconf upang lumikha ng positibong karanasan sa customer, habang pinipigilan din ang dobleng paggastos.“Karamihan sa mga taong bumibili ng mga bagay mula sa e-commerce ay inaasahan na agad na makuha ang mga ito, dahil sanay na sila, tulad ng paggamit ng mga credit card at iba pa,”sabi ng Bitcoin Developer na si John Carvalho.”Hindi namin magagawa ito sa RBF, dahil pinapayagan ng RBF ang gumagamit na baguhin din ang patutunguhan ng transaksyon. Mahalaga, programmatically doble paggastos ng merchant. Hindi mo talaga matatanggap ang isang transaksyon sa RBF gamit ang zeroconf. ”
Ang isa pang hindi katiyakan sa Kidlat ay ang potensyal para sa MEV o”minimihahing halaga ng minero”upang maging isang problema. Ang MEV ay isang sukatan ng potensyal na kita na magagamit sa isang minero na muling nag-order ng mga transaksyon sa loob ng isang bloke.
“Ang pangkalahatang ideya ay sa isang blockchain na nakikipag-usap sa mga transaksyon, kung minsan may mga pagkakataon para sa taong may kontrol sa pag-order ng mga transaksyon na pupunta sa mga bloke upang kunin ang halaga batay sa pagkakasunud-sunod na inilagay nila ang mga transaksyong iyon sa isang bloke,”sabi ni Lisa Neigut, isang developer ng c-kidlat. Nag iminungkahi ni Carvalho ng isang solusyon na nagsasangkot sa pagpigil sa mga minero mula sa pagkakaroon ng sapat na impormasyon upang makilala kung kumikitang muli ang pag-order ng mga transaksyon.
mahirap para sa mga minero na mangalap ng impormasyon tungkol sa, ”panukala niya.”Sa ganoong paraan, insulated ka talaga mula sa kanilang kakayahang matukoy kung ano ang eksaktong ginagawa mo, at kung mas mahalaga ito sa iyo kaysa sa isang simpleng lumang transaksyon sa Bitcoin.”Ibinahagi ni Ryan Gentry kung ano ang kinaganyak niya tungkol sa kinabukasan ng Kidlat.
“Pagdadala lamang ng mas maraming tao sa kalawakan, pagkuha ng interes ng maraming tao, na hindi maiwasang humantong sa mas maraming mga developer, sa mas maraming mga pagsisimula,”aniya.”Talagang nasasabik ako para sa mga hindi kilalang mag-pop up sa susunod na anim na buwan, na lalabas mula sa pag-ampon na ito. Mayroong Lightning Labs at Blockstream, Sync, Square Crypto. Siyempre, mayroon kaming talagang mga pang-matagalang pananaw na iniisip namin, at ang mga bagay na nasasabik kami sa susunod na tatlo hanggang limang taon, sa mga tuntunin ng pag-unlad ng proteksyon”.
[00:00:06] P: John, bigyan kami ng iyong mga pag-deet. 00:09] JC: Hoy, ako si John Carvalho. Sa ngayon mayroon akong isang podcast na tinawag na The Biz. Maaari mong suriin ang thebiz.pro. Ako ay CEO ng isang stealth mode na kumpanya, na gumagawa ng mga produkto ng software ng Bitcoin at Kidlat upang maghanda para sa hyper-Bitcoinization.
V 00: 00: P p>[00:00:24] V: Ang pangalan ko ay Vivek. Gumagawa ako ng pagpapaunlad ng negosyo para sa Blockstream, sa likido at relay sa aming produktong Greenlight. Maaari lamang akong maging bahagi ng ilang mga hangal na karamihan na binanggit ni Juan.
[00:00:38] P: Sa tuwing, tao, palagi mong binibigyang diin ang iyong sarili. Kaibig-ibig. Ang Vivek ay hindi kapani-paniwala matalino. Gusto niyang ilarawan ang kanyang sarili bilang isang BD, isang sales guy lang. Ang sasabihin sa katotohanan, tinulungan niya akong ayusin ang karamihan sa mga puwang na ito na nakatuon sa Kidlat. Siya ay hindi kapani-paniwala kaalaman tungkol sa lahat ng bagay na ito. Kapag nagsasalita siya, dapat kang makinig lahat.
[00:00:54] V: Hindi ko alam kung ano ang pinagsasabi mo. Ako ang alaga ni Lisa na butiki.
<00 [00:00:57] P: Totoo rin iyan. Ang mga bagay na iyon ay hindi kapwa eksklusibo. Lisa, bigyan mo kami ng iyong mga deet.[00:01:01] LN: Hoy, mga kaibigan. Ako si lisa. Pasensya na Kumakain ako ng sorbetes. Gumagawa ako ng isang blockchain kasama ang aking alagang butiki, Vivek. Nagtatrabaho ako sa C-kidlat, na kung saan ay isang pagpapatupad ng Kidlat, nakasulat iyon halos sa C. Sa palagay ko, ang isa sa aking mga katrabaho ay nagtatrabaho sa pagdulas ng ilang Rust sa gilid. Titingnan natin kung paano ito gagana.
<00 [00:01:18] P: pagdulas ng ilang kalawang sa gilid. Parang masakit iyon, ngunit narito ako para rito. Ang kalawang ay isang hindi kapani-paniwalang cool na wika ng programa, at-
<00 [00:01:25] V: Narinig mo muna ito dito. Tetanus Kidlat.
<00 [00:01:27] P: Oo. Kapag ako ay isang software engineer. Tapos ng isang bungkos ng iba pang mga bagay, ngunit gusto kong ihiwalay ang mga pisikal na bagay. Noong nasa high school at kolehiyo ako, mayroon akong trak na ito na natalo lang, at magmaneho ako upang i-scrap ang mga bakuran at dinadaanan ang lahat ng mga tambak na kalawang na metal, na naghahanap ng kakaibang tae. Ang pang-limang beses, pinutol ko ang aking sarili sa isang piraso. Ako ay tulad ng,"Dapat akong makakuha ng isang tetanus booster."Nagpunta ako sa doktor at siya ay tulad ng,"Here you go."Mas gumanda ang pakiramdam ko pagkatapos nito. Lisa, nais kong kausapin ka tungkol sa napakahusay na kagamitang isinulat mo kamakailan tungkol sa MEV sa Kidlat. Tiyak na nais kong makarating doon, ngunit bago natin mapunta iyon, mayroon bang iba pang kasalukuyang mga kaganapan na ang sinumang nasa entablado ay partikular na nasasabik, nagagalit, nagagalit tungkol sa nauugnay sa Lightning Network? 00:02:12] V: Nais kong malaman kung paano, kung ako ay isang mamamayan ng El Salvadoran, kung paano ko magagamit nang pribado ang Bitcoin na binigyan ako ng regalo, o HODL, o ano ang aking pinakamahusay na diskarte?<00 [00:02:29] V: Nais mo bang sumakay dito ngayon, o balikan iyon pagkatapos ng MEV?
Oo naman Na-curious ako, hulaan ko, ang kasalukuyang paraan ng paggawa ng mga tao ng mga bagay ay nais mong ilipat iyon sa custodial, non-KYC wallet. Pagkatapos pagkatapos nito, ipadala ito sa iyong Lightning node. Pagkatapos kung kailangan mong tapusin ang pagsasara ng isang channel at mailabas mo ang UTXO na iyon, nais mong ihalo iyon. Pagkatapos, ang paghahalo na bubukas ang buong iba pang lata ng bulate at ang mga giyera sa apoy tungkol sa pagpapatupad ng barya. Nagtataka lang ako, ano ang maaaring realistiko, isang baguhan na gumagamit sa El Salvador?
<00 [00:03:12] JC: Sa palagay ko dapat mong tukuyin kahit papaano ang pribado mula sa kung kanino, kapag nagkakaroon ka ng pag-uusap sa privacy, dahil hindi ko alam. Ang mga pag-uusap na ito ay palaging naramdaman na pinag-uusapan lamang natin ang tungkol sa malawak na spectrum ng privacy na dapat mailapat, at ang pamantayan ng privacy na hindi talaga makatotohanang, na kahit papaano ay makakamit natin para sa anumang naibigay na sitwasyon. Sa palagay ko, mahalaga ito nang pribado mula sa kanino, ano ang antas ng takot o panganib dito, at ano ang talagang ginagawa mong pagsubok na maging pribado? Dahil marahil mayroong magkakaibang pamamaraan para sa paggawa nito. Marahil, ang ilan ay magiging labis na labis.
<00 [00:04:30] JC: Sasabihin ko, malamang na hindi mo nais na subukang itago ang $ 30 ng Bitcoin na ibinigay nila. Iyon ay marahil isang walang kabuluhang pagsisikap.
<00 [00:04:35] P: Tiyak na Kahit na isang magandang point. John, maaari ba nating ulitin kung sino ang maaaring magtangkang takpan ang mga transaksyong ito? Malinaw na, nakuha natin ang gobyerno ng Salvadorian. Sino ang iba pang mga potensyal na artista na maaaring magawa ng mga tao, o maaaring, tulad ng sinabi ko, na nais na takpan ang kanilang mga aksyon mula sa?
mga tipikal na kaso at paggamit ng mga kaso kung saan nais ng mga tao ang privacy bukod sa gobyerno. Hindi ko alam Minsan ang privacy mula sa iyong kasintahan, o kasintahan, o asawa, o isang tao sa iyong pamilya na pinag-aalala mong nasa droga at magnakaw ng iyong pera. Pangkalahatan, maraming mga kadahilanan upang maitago ang iyong pinakamasama. Hindi mo kailangang itago ang iyong aktibidad sa Lightning channel mula sa iyong baliw na tiyuhin. Depende lang talaga ito sa sinusubukan mong gawin. , walang diskriminasyon sa presyo, kung saan maaari silang singilin sa kanila ng mas malaking presyo. Totoo, nag-aalinlangan ako na ang kanilang mga potensyal na kalaban ay sapat na may kaalaman upang mausisa at alamin kung nasaan ang mga balanse. Oo naman Nagtataka lang kung paano umuusbong ang lahat ng ito at ano ang mga pinakamahusay na bagay na magagawa nila? Yeah, ang karamihan sa mga tao ay nag-aalala, na kung saan ay tinitiyak na bumaba ka sa Chivo. Sa palagay ko, marahil iyon ay isang mahusay na hakbang. Kung ang isang tao ay maaaring maging marahas sa iyo dahil sa iyong Bitcoin, malamang na kung bakit naghahanap ka para sa privacy.[00:05:59] P: Oo, ganap. Sa palagay ko, kung ano ang nakukuha ko ay syempre, kung mayroon kang isang address ng wallet na mayroong 5 Bitcoin dito at babayaran mo ang isang tao para sa isang kape, agad nilang makikita kung ito ay nasa chain, na nagmula sa iyong address na may 5 Bitcoin. Nagiging talagang mahalaga ang privacy. Hindi lamang tungkol sa pagsubok na protektahan ang iyong sarili mula sa gobyerno, o ang iyong nakatutuwang tiyuhin. Isang bagay lamang sa mahusay na opsec. Ngayon, kung pinag-uusapan natin ang tungkol sa Kidlat, maliwanag na magkakaiba ito, ngunit mahalaga na pag-isipan ang tungkol dito.
magpatuloy. Minsan kapag sumuko ka sa ilang halaga ng privacy, nakukuha mo ang iba pang mga bagay bilang kapalit. Sa palagay ko, para sa custodial wallet, maaari kang magtaltalan na sa pamamagitan ng pagkakaroon ng isang custodial wallet, kaya hinayaan mong makita ng tagapag-alaga ang pangkalahatang kasaysayan ng transaksyon, alam nila kung sino ka, alam nila kung sino ang iyong pakikitungo. Kapalit nito, nakuha mo, maaaring sabihin ng ilan na-hindi mo kailangang pamahalaan ang iyong mga susi, dahil ginagawa ito ng tagapag-alaga para sa iyo, at mayroong ilang halaga ng kaginhawaan na palaging nasa serbisyo na malinaw, lahat ng mga bagay na ito ay Sinasabi ko na may mga pag-uusap, ngunit may isang trade-off.Tulad ng sa partikular na wallet ng Chivo, mayroon bang isang partikular na trade-off na nakuha mo mula sa paggamit ng pitaka? Anumang magandang magkaroon mula sa partikular na Chivo wallet, sa itaas at lampas marahil sa anumang iba pang self-host, o self-custodian Bitcoin wallet? May katuturan ba iyon?
<00 [00:07:09] V: Marahil ay may mga balanse at ruta at paunang Bitcoin, tulad ng sinasabi ni Shinobi. JC: Sa palagay ko wala sa atin ang sumubok ng wallet, kaya nag-aalangan akong magbigay ng puna. Ang hulaan ko ay, oo, mga sentralisadong serbisyo, tulad ng paglipat ng tao sa loob ng ecosystem nang walang bayad at mga bagay na tulad nito.[00:07:25] P: Alam ba natin kung, o may narinig man kung ang wallet ay nagbibigay ng pagpapaandar upang mai-convert nang direkta ang Bitcoin sa USD nang katutubo? O hiwalay ba iyon? Dahil alam nila na mayroon silang tiwala na na-set up nila?
<00 [00:07:36] V: Hindi ako nakapunta sa El Salvador o anupaman. Mula sa aking naobserbahan, ang mga ATM ang gumagawa nito. <00 [00:07:42] P: Ay, nakikita ko. Okay.[00:07:43] S: Alam ko, naisip ko na ang wallet ay may kakayahang mag-host ng isang fiat balanse at gawin din ang conversion?
[00:07:49] JC: Sa pagkakaalam ko, hindi mo kailangang magkaroon ng Bitcoin exposure kung ayaw mo. Dapat itong awtomatikong gumawa ng ilang conversion, hindi bababa sa.
[00:07:57] LN: Maaari ko bang i-download ang wallet na ito? Mayroon bang nakakaalam kung magagamit ito sa app store? Paano makukuha ng mga tao sa El Salvador ang pitaka na ito?
<00 [00:08:03] JC: Sigurado akong nasa app store ito doon. Hindi ko alam kung makukuha mo man.<00 [00:08:06] V: Hindi maitapon ang isang VPN?
[00:08:08] P: Sige. Papunta ako sa amin, maliban kung si Lisa, mayroon ka bang ibang mga saloobin o katanungan tungkol doon? Dinala mo ito noong isang segundo. Ako lang talaga-Hindi, hindi. Hindi.
Super curious din ako sa mga ins and out. Nais kong malaman kung paano ko ito lalaruin. Kung malalaman mo ito, mangyaring ipaalam sa akin. Nagtataka ako kung ang pagkakaroon lamang ng isang VPN ay magpapahintulot sa iyo na gawin. Sige, paano ka, John? Ano ang nagmula kamakailan na partikular na nasasabik sa iyo, tungkol sa, o kagiliw-giliw lamang sa pangkalahatan, na nauugnay sa Lightning Network?
<00 [00:08:34] JC: Nauugnay sa Lightning Network, ang ang mga bagay lang na pumapasok sa isip ko pa rin ang bagay na hindi ko masabi. Sasabihin ko, marahil isang tao na nahuli ang debate kamakailan sa paligid ng RBF, at maaari nating pag-usapan marahil kung paano nakakaapekto ang RBF sa Lightning Network sa anumang paraan at ganoong uri ng bagay, kung nauugnay iyon. Ayokong gawin itong debate sa RBF.<00 [00:08:53] V: John, nagkakaroon kami ng debate sa apat na taon na ang nakakalipas at ginagawa pa rin namin ito. Ito ay upang pumunta o hindi.
/p>[00:09:06] JC: Okay. gagawin namin ito
nag-aalok ng zero na pagtanggap ng transaksyon sa kumpirmasyon bilang isang serbisyo. Ito ay isang bagay na magagawa nila medyo talagang kontrolado, sa isang napaka-kinokontrol na paraan upang limitahan ang kanilang pagkakalantad at subaybayan at panatilihing kontrolado ang mga bagay. Sa kabila ng katotohanang ang pagtanggap ng mga zero na transaksyon sa kumpirmasyon ay ilalantad ka sa dobleng mga pagkakataon sa paggastos para sa mga taong bumibili ng mga bagay mula sa iyo, lalo na para sa kumpanya na siyang punong barko ng ideyang ito, na mayroong Bitrefill, na tumanggap ng zero kumpirmasyon na mga pagbabayad sa Bitcoin sa loob ng maraming taon ngayon , at talagang nagkaroon ng napakaliit na gastos sa paggawa nito.
malamang na makumpirma sila sa susunod na bloke. Pagkatapos tanggapin na bilang isang zero na transaksyon sa kumpirmasyon at gantimpalaan ang customer na iyon, o bayaran ang customer na iyon, anuman ang binili nila. Sa kaso ni Bitrefill, isang card ng regalo. Ang isang card ng regalo ay ang pinaka-mapanganib na bagay na inaalok sa ganitong paraan, sapagkat ito ay mahalagang, isang pribadong key para sa kredito sa ilang website. Maaari itong ma-render agad ng customer, at sa gayon ay hindi ka makakakuha ng pag-refund, o i-undo ang anumang bagay.
Ang Bitrefill ay pinamamahalaang kahit papaano na hindi talaga magastos ng doble. Sa palagay ko, marahil mayroon silang isa o dalawang maliit. Kailangan mong tanungin si Sergei doon para sa mga detalye. Pangkalahatan, walang talagang makabuluhan. Ginagawa ito sa pamamagitan ng pagsubaybay sa transaksyon, suriin kung anong transaksyon ito, sapagkat hindi ito maaaring maging RBF, na kung saan ay ang pangunahing punto dito, na makakarating ako. pagkakalantad ay magiging. Talaga, sinasabi tulad, nais lamang naming magkaroon ng $ 20,000 na halaga ng mga order na bukas na kasalukuyang zero conf, at makukuha namin ito. Karaniwan na na-maximize ang iyong pagkakalantad sa lahat ng oras, upang magustuhan, ang karamihan sa sinuman ay maaaring posible na doble gugulin ka para sa isang sandali. Maaari mong kunin ang gastos na iyon at isipin ito bilang isang gastos sa paggawa ng negosyo, o gastos ng pagbibigay ng serbisyong iyon, at marahil kahit isang gastos sa pagbawas sa serbisyo sa customer, o mga bagay na tulad nito, na nauugnay sa hindi pagtanggap ng mga zero na pagbabayad sa kumpirmasyon, dahil nagdaragdag sila ang mga gastos sa serbisyo sa customer at iba`t ibang mga nakalilito na sitwasyon para sa mga tao kapag namimili.Talaga, pinapayagan nilang magbago ang customer, upang mai-edit sa transaksyon. Karaniwan, ginagamit ito upang maidagdag lamang sa bayad upang subukang gawin ito, upang maaari kang magbayad ng pinakamababang posibleng bayad kapag nagsumite ka ng isang transaksyon. Hindi ito isang mainam na format para sa pagbili ng isang bagay kapag nais mo ang bagay na iyon kaagad.. Hindi namin ito magagawa sa RBF, dahil pinapayagan ng RBF ang gumagamit na baguhin din ang patutunguhan ng transaksyon. Mahalaga, programmatically doble paggastos ng merchant. Hindi mo talaga matatanggap ang isang transaksyon sa RBF na may zero conf. Ang buong paksa ay talagang, sa akin lang sinasabi na naisip ko ang mga tagalikha ng app, pitaka at mga taong gumagawa ng software sa antas ng app, may ilan, at dahil narito lang sila, maaari din nating sabihin na, ang Blockstream ay isa sa kanila, ang Green ay isa sa mga ito, na default ang lahat ng mga transaksyon sa pagiging RBF.
Lahat sila dapat maging RBF. para sa mga sitwasyon ng merchant, isinasaalang-alang ko ang mga mobile wallet na gumagasta ng mga wallet. Dapat mayroon silang hindi bababa sa, ang kakayahang patayin ang RBF. Pagkatapos ay mas mabuti pa, ang RBF ay dapat na patayin bilang default, sa aking palagay, sa mga mainit na pitaka, sapagkat lumilikha ito ng isang mas mahusay na karanasan ng gumagamit para sa paggastos ng mga pitaka. Iyon ang buong buod, sa palagay ko.
[00:12:50] S: Vivek, sapagkat ito ay isang madaling bagay upang malutas. Ako ay literal na dash dash spurred out sa akin. Para sa pagsasabi nito, i-update lamang ang form na URI. Ang default para sa pitaka ay dapat na walang katuturan kung maaari mong i-flag sa invoice ng URI na ang- <00 [00:13:09] JC: Yeah. Ito ay tiyak na isang banayad na aspeto ng pag-uusap, ngunit mas kawili-wili ito kaysa sa nakaraang debate, sapagkat talagang may kaugnayan ito. Sasabihin ko, kung ano ang iyong pinag-uusapan, na nagiging isang pagsisikap sa pag-unlad ng negosyo, tulad ng pagkuha ng lahat ng mga pitaka upang gawin ang bagay. Iyon ang ginagawa ko sa Twitter ay ginagawa ko ang tamad na pag-unlad ng negosyo. Sinasabi ko, hey, nang hindi talaga nakikipag-ugnay sa lahat ng mga pitaka, sasabihin ko lamang,"Sa palagay ko dapat isipin ng mga tao ito at magkaroon ng halagang ito, at dapat itong maging bahagi ng ating kultura at normal."
Yeah, maaari kang mag-isip ng maraming mga paraan upang mapabuti ang mga format ng pagbabayad at ang paraan ng pakikipag-usap ng mga app sa bawat isa, at URiS at pagkakaroon ng mga bagay na katulad nito. Sinusuportahan kami kahit saan. Magiging mabuting paraan ba ito? Kailangan mong, muli, kunin ang lahat na gawin ito, dahil hindi ito isang ipinatutupad na protokol. Hindi mo ito maluluto sa Bitcoin. Hindi ko alam Karaniwang hindi mahusay na sinusubukan ng mga negosyo na subukang lumahok sa kaunting proseso at alam mo kung paano ito nangyayari.
mga tao upang baguhin ang default na pag-uugali para sa RBF. Bakit hindi na lang gawin ang karagdagang hakbang-<00 [00:14:07] JC: Hindi talaga. Nakumbinsi lang talaga ang Blockstream karamihan, upang maging matapat lang.
<00 [00:14:34] P: Nakuha mo ito. Dalawang bagay. Isa, nais ko lang tanggapin si Ryan sa entablado. Magandang makita ka, tao. Salamat sa narito.
<00 [00:14:39] RG: Hoy. Salamat sa pagkakaroon mo sa akin. <00 [00:14:40] P: Yeah. Talagang, tao. Pagkatapos gusto kong bigyan si Walton ng pagkakataong tumalon. Naging matiyaga siya sa pagtaas ng kamay at pagkatapos ay nais kong bumalik kay Brian Shinobi, hybrid na nilalang, at nais kong hayaan kang matapos na sabihin kung ano ang sasabihin mo[00:14:50] W: Hey guys. Nagkaroon ako ng isang puna sa katanungang VPN dati, sapagkat nagtanong ako sa isang tao sa UK, na palaging sinusubukan na magpanggap na nasa ibang mga bansa. Ito ay isang bagay na napalawak ko nang malawakan. Sa kasamaang palad, ang VPN lamang ay hindi sasapat, sapagkat tiyak na hindi ako isang iOS, dahil ang mga store ng app ay batay sa bansa. Kahit na maaari kang magpanggap na nasa El Salvador, ang iyong app store ay magiging isang US app store, o UK app store, anuman ito. Kung pinaghigpitan ito ng heyograpiya, hindi mo ito magagawa, kung nasa labas ka ng El Salvador.
[00:15:21] P: Kita ko. Salamat pare. Pinahahalagahan ko ito.
dito sa taas. Sa palagay ko, ang RBF bilang default ay mabuti dahil pumipila ito sa katotohanang ang mga transaksyong on-chain ay probabilistically final lamang, tama ba? Nasanay na kami sa isang mundo kung saan walang mga reorg at ang isang bloke ay nakumpirma at ang lahat ay mahusay na nagtatayo sa tuktok nito. Hindi iyon ang garantiya mula sa protokol. Sa palagay ko, mas naaayon ito sa kung ano ang talagang inaalok ng protocol na magkaroon ng RBF bilang default na on-chain at hindi upang subukan at hayaan ang mga tao na maniwala na on-chain, zero conf on-chain na mga transaksyon ay agad na pangwakas. Sasabihin ko na ito ay, sa palagay ko, isang magandang lugar ng pagbubuklod na kung saan ang Blockstream, at least ang aking sarili ay malamang na mayroon. marahil lamang ng isang iba’t ibang mga pag-uusap kaysa sa mayroon ako, dahil hindi ko sinusubukan na sabihin na hindi dapat maintindihan ng mga tao na gumagana ang Bitcoin sa ganoong paraan. O sinusubukan silang isipin na gumagana ang Bitcoin sa isang paraan na hindi ito aktwal na gumagana. Sinusubukan kong sabihin, na magagawa ito ng mga mangangalakal. Maaari nilang ibigay ang spectrum na ito ng serbisyo sa isang napaka-kontrolado at ligtas na paraan, at ito ay matipid sa ekonomiya at makatuwiran na gawin ito para sa parehong partido, kapwa ang customer at ang mangangalakal. Karaniwan ito ay isang win-win at ang win-win ay mas mahusay na pinadali, lalo na sa loob ng kapaligiran ng isang paggasta na wallet, isang mainit na pitaka ng ilang mga default. Sa pangkalahatan, hindi sa palagay ko ang pagkakaroon ng mga developer ng protocol at mga developer ng mababang antas na nakakaimpluwensya kung paano ginagamit ng mga tao ang mga bagay na may mga default na setting. Maaari itong maging isang napaka madilim na pag-uugali sa pattern ng disenyo.<00 [00:17:02] P: Gusto ko lang hayaan-ang goddammit, ang pangalan mo, Brian Shinobi, Shinobi Brian ay tumalon at tapusin ang sinasabi niya kanina. Pagkatapos ay bumalik tayo kay Ryan at-
Iyon ang puntong iyon.
<00 [00:17:31] S: John, Maaari ko bang tapusin? Gayunpaman, ang buong puntong sinusubukan kong makuha nang mas maaga, ay sa pamamagitan lamang ng pag-tweak sa URI upang magkaroon ng isang watawat na igagalang at itutulak ng mga pitaka para sa isang bagay na tulad nito, hindi mo rin kailangang alisin ang bandila ng RBF. I-lock lamang ito sa pinakamataas na numero ng pagkakasunud-sunod, upang walang ibang mapapalitan iyon. Mabisang mayroon kang parehong mga garantiya ng isang hindi RBF na transaksyon. Ito ay magiging mas matino mula sa aking pananaw upang itulak ang pagbabago sa URI na iyon. Ito ay magiging isang napaka-simpleng solong bandila sa QR code na na-scan ng isang tao, at pagkatapos ay isang babalang pupunta,"Hoy, ang iyong pitaka ay lumihis mula sa iyong normal na inaasahang pag-uugali. Okay ka lang ba dito bago nila tapusin ang transaksyon?"Magbibigay ito ng parehong mga garantiya na hinahanap ng isang mangangalakal, kung pipiliin nilang tanggapin ang antas ng zero conf chain. <00 [00:18:25] P: Ryan, ano sa palagay mo?<00 [00:18:26] JC: Hindi ko masasabi, ano ang magpapabago sa isip ni Blockstream para kay Green, bilang isang halimbawa, upang tanggapin ang isang bagong pamamaraan ng URI at makilahok dito, o suportahan ito, o upang magdagdag lamang ng kakayahan sa pag-toggle at i-default sa RBF. Hindi ko alam kung aling bagay ang pupuntahan nila para mas madali ito. Tingin ko talaga na ang RBF toggle ay mas madaling ipatupad, ngunit alinman sa isa ay hindi mahirap at alinman sa lahat ay hindi nakakagambala. Sa palagay ko walang malaking pagkakaiba. Karamihan ay hanggang sa Blockstream lamang, kung ano ang kanilang paniniwala at kung paano nila nais na ang karanasan ng gumagamit ay nasa kanilang sariling pitaka.
<00 [00:18:56] P: Ryan, ano sa palagay mo? Oh, sige, Nifty. Sa totoo lang, ikaw muna at saka si Ryan. Gusto kong marinig ang iyong mga saloobin. <00 [00:19:00] LN: Yeah. Sa palagay ko mahalaga na ipahiwatig na ang pag-uusap na RBF na ito ay medyo malayo sa spec ng Kidlat. Na ang partido na nagbubukas ng channel ay ang nagtatayo ng pambungad na transaksyon para sa pagpopondo sa channel. Pinili nilang gawin ang zero conf, o kahit kailan, pipiliin nila kung anong transaksyon ang gagawin nila. Inaasahan ko, ang taong nagpapasya kung anong mga transaksyon ang iyong ginagawa ay ang parehong tao na gumagawa ng zero conf na bagay, at maaari silang magpasya kung anong uri ng RBF, o hindi ang RBF na bagay ang gagamitin nila. Hindi alam kung gaano karaming mga tao ang talagang nagbubukas ng mga Lightning channel gamit ang Green wallet, sasabihin ko. Mukhang, ito talaga ang isang hiling sa tampok para sa Green. Sigurado ako, hindi lamang si John ang nais na magkaroon ng isang watawat kung gagawin o hindi ang mga bagay na RBF sa Green wallet. Hindi ko talaga sigurado na ang isang chat na Lightning center na ito ang tamang lugar.[00:19:56] JC: Wala itong kinalaman sa Lightning. Walang Kidlat [hindi maririnig 00:20:00] para sa Green wallet.
Sige. Malamig. Oo naman Lahat tama. Nasa parehong pahina kami noon. Cool.[00:20:05] P: Yeah. Oo naman Ano ang gusto kong-
<00 [00:20:06] RG: Maaari kong ibalik ito sa Kidlat. maaga, Ryan.
[00:20:08] W: [Hindi maririnig 00:20:08] hindi ba? Kasi parang, instant na pagbabayad, di ba?
[00:20:12] RG: Yeah. Sa palagay ko, ang isang bagay na inilabas ni John sa isang punto na, na siya at ako, sa partikular, napag-usapan namin ang tungkol dito, ito ay isang desisyon sa negosyo. Dapat bang may kakayahan ang mga developer ng protocol na disincentivize, ano ang lehitimong pagpapatakbo ng negosyo sa pagtanggap ng mga zero conf na transaksyon? Sa palagay ko, na maraming pagsasapawan dito kasama din ang mga bagay ng proteksyon ng Lightning. Sa palagay ko, ang mas maraming tanong na meta ay dapat may kakayahan ang mga tagabuo ng mga protocol, o pakiramdam ay may kapangyarihan na disincentivize ng ilang mga lehitimong mga aktibidad sa negosyo?
Ang pinag-uusapan natin dito, kung saan talagang hindi tayo sumasang-ayon ay higit pa sa oras sa oras kaysa sa anupaman. Maaari bang matagumpay na makatanggap ang Bitrefill ng mga zero conf na transaksyon ngayon? Oo, ganap. Sa palagay ba namin magagawa nila ito sa loob ng 10 taon na may isang talagang likido, wala pa sa gulang na Lightning Network, kung saan ito ay magiging isang mas mahusay na solusyon sa kabuuan? Oo, marahil. Kapag sa loob ng susunod na 10 taon ay ang oras para sa mga developer ng protocol na sabihin,”Okay, pupunta kami sa RBF bilang default, sapagkat mabuti para sa lahat ng mga holistic na dahilan na hindi nakakaapekto ang refills ay direktang negosyo sa lahat, at Bitrefill ay kailangang baguhin ang kanilang mga kasanayan sa negosyo dahil sa lahat ng mga mas malaki, mas maraming mga benepisyo sa pamayanan?”Sa palagay ko, ito ay talagang isang kagiliw-giliw na tanong na teoretikal. Ito ay isa, wala talagang isang sukat na sukat sa lahat. Sa pangkalahatan ay pabor ako sa pagnanais na itulak ang mas maraming tao sa paggamit ng mga solusyon na batay sa Kidlat, ngunit malinaw naman, ako ay kakila-kilabot sa kuro-kuro na opinyon. isang segundo. Ito ang core sa negosyo ng Bitrefill. Siguro ang Bitrefill ay may higit na mga pagkabigo sa Kidlat ngayon, kaysa sa pagtanggap nila ng mga zero conf on-chain na transaksyon.”Hoy, mga developer ng protokol, walang dahilan, at wala kang kalayaan sa pagsabi sa amin kung paano patakbuhin ang aming negosyo. Sa palagay ko, ito ay isang kagiliw-giliw na tanong sa meta tungkol sa mga desisyon sa disenyo ng protokol, kumpara sa higit pang mga interes sa komersyo. Wala talagang magandang sagot dito.[00:22:00] JC: Mayroon akong dalawang puntos na nais kong ilabas. Ang isa ay, bilang isang kultura, sa pangkalahatan, ang mga developer ng protocol ay medyo ayaw sa mga negosyong nakakaimpluwensya sa protokol at nakakaimpluwensya kung paano gumagana ang mga bagay sa Bitcoin. Sa palagay ko, magiging hindi bababa sa lohikal na pare-pareho para sa kanila na magkaroon ng isang katulad na diskarte sa kanilang impluwensya sa mga gumagamit. Ang paggawa ng mga bagay, tulad ng pagpilit ng isang default ng isang bagay na hindi pangunahing batayan ng transaksyon sa Bitcoin. Hindi naaayon iyon sa ayaw pag-impluwensyahan ng mga negosyo. Pagkatapos, isa pang bagay na nais kong ilabas ay, sa palagay ko ano-si Walton ay nagpapahiwatig nito, at ngayon ka lang. Hindi ito kinakailangang sinasabi kong gawin ito, sa halip na onboarding ang mga tao sa Kidlat. Pinag-uusapan ito tungkol sa kasalukuyang sitwasyon. Pinag-uusapan ang tungkol sa pagbibigay ng zero conf na pangungusap bilang isang serbisyo.
Pinaguusapan lamang ang tungkol sa pagtakip sa isang karagdagang bahagi ng spectrum na maaaring saklawin ngayon. May mga tao na hindi gumagamit ng Kidlat. May mga tao na hindi kayang magbayad ng on-chain. Mayroong mga tao na gumastos ng on-chain, at ang mga taong iyon ay maaaring magkaroon ng isang mas mahusay na karanasan ng gumagamit sa pamamagitan lamang ng sadyang paghahanda para dito.[00:23:12] P: Nakuha mo ito. Okay, magagandang puntos sa buong paligid.
Nais kong sabihin sa iyo ang tungkol sa aming pinakabagong sponsor. Ang palabas na ito ay dinala sa iyo ng ledn.io. Ako ay sobrang, sobrang humanga sa mga lalaki sa Ledn. Talagang kilala ko ang mga co-founder, sina Adam at Mauricio sa napakatagal na panahon. Nasiyahan ako na panoorin silang bumuo ng Ledn mula sa isang maliit, maliit na startup, hanggang sa isang napakahusay na grade ng institusyon, ang Bitcoin at crypto lender. Y’all, labis akong humanga sa mga lalaking ito. Nag-aalok sila ng ilan sa mga pinakamahusay na rate doon. Sa palagay ko ay hindi kahit sino ay malapit sa paghawak sa kanila. Ibig kong sabihin, alam ko ang lahat ng mga kakumpitensya. Hindi man sila close. If you’re going to put your crypto and your Bitcoin into an interest account, Ledn is by far the best. On top of that, like I said, these guys are hardcore Bitcoiners, and they know the products and the services that Bitcoiners want and appreciate. They came up with B2X. It allows you to put your Bitcoin in and a leverage it up, and you can with one click of a mouse, get twice the exposure to Bitcoin.If you’re super bullish, Ledn has you covered with a super, super easy way to get leverage with B2X. Then on top of that, they know that Bitcoiners care about your reserves. They know that Bitcoiners don’t like under-reserved and not full-reserved financial institutions. They are pushing the frontier in transparency in the digital asset lending space. They are the first digital asset lender to do a full proof of reserves and proof of attestation, through a Mariano LLC, a public accounting firm.
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[00:25:10] CK: Bitcoiners, I want to tell you about The Deep Dive. The Deep Dive is Bitcoin Magazine’s premium market intelligence newsletter. This is a no fluff, hard-hitting, incredible newsletter going deep into the market, helping you understand what’s happening with derivatives, what’s happening on-chain, what’s happening in macro, what’s happening with the narrative and what’s happening with the tech.
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[EPISODE CONTINUED]
[00:26:41] P: I want to move us on to talking about Lisa’s recent article,’MEV over Lightning’. Because I know, Lisa, you got to go in about 25 minutes. Let’s shift over to that and dive in. Can you give us a high-level summary of the article that you wrote and what the major points are?
[00:26:58] LN: I can try. I have to admit, I tend to be a little forgetful. I can do my best, though. I think, there’s some interesting tie-ins here between this question about what does business and protocol is exactly. Hopefully, I’ll be able to tease it out as we go through it, because that may be interesting. I think, so maybe the best place to start is a short introduction to what MEV means. I’m sure there’s people in the audience who’ve never heard that term before. Might be totally new.
MEV is a term that I’m going to say, originated in one of the Ethereum communities and the Bitcoin community. It typically deals with this idea of – so MEV, it’s Maverick MEV. It stands for Miner Extractable Value. The general idea is that in a blockchain that deals with transactions, there are sometimes opportunities for the person who has the control over ordering of transactions that go into blocks, to extract value based on the order that they put those transactions into a block.
It’s really more of a thing on Ethereum, because of the way Ethereum works in terms of being a execution. Transactions in Ethereum block, or execution, each of them updates some global state that everyone reads and writes from. By moving your transaction to the top of a block, you would get executed. Your transaction logic would update the global seat before anyone else’s, and in a lot of cases or some cases. It depends on the current state of the global state, so to speak.
The ordering can be quite profitable, if you get to say what order those transactions go in. Specifically, one example, I think, probably the easiest one is certain arbitrage is become possible depending on, you see a trade that someone wants to make, say, submit a block to a mining pool, and then you see it enter the mempool, it gives you an opportunity to make another transaction, maybe that goes on a little before, like it was right before or right after it. Then, you basically, would bribe a miner to order the transactions in such a way.
Part of how you’re bribing them is you’re giving them a portion of the arbitrage that you would gain, because that’s more than they might get by just taking the fees for the transactions. The miner submits a blocked to be mined, such that your transaction gets ordered in front of the other one. Just to recap. The whole idea of MEV is, is there opportunity for the economic incentives of miners to not necessarily come to the forefront, but become a pressure on the design of the system, design of the protocol itself, such that we would maybe need to make changes, or new infrastructure would need to be built for Lightning, because someone, or something has identified opportunities for ordering of transactions, or maybe channel opens in such a way that there’s value there that can be extracted, so to speak.
I think, that’s the overarching scheme of the article that I wrote. I guess, that was last week. It feels like a long time ago. Yeah. It’s the overarching – No, really was two weeks ago. Sorry. It was the overarching idea of the paper, or I should say, article. Then in the article itself, I go through and just looking at them, but Lightning, there’s two different places you can say, okay, Lightning MEV, does it exist?
One is on on-chain, the layer one stuff. The places where Lightning interacts with the Bitcoin layer, so on-chain transactions. Then, the other place it’s more interesting to look at for extractable value, maximal extractable value is MEV is sometimes called – would be more the Lightning payment infrastructure layer, so just on layer two itself. It’s the big, broad points there. Maybe I should, I don’t know if anyone has questions, or maybe corrections about that. While you do that, I’m going to go find the tweet where I talked about it, so I can share it, so people can check out that article.
[00:30:57] RG: One very small correction in favor of Bitcoin maximalism. MEV started in the Bitcoin ecosystem. The original paper was James Prestwich, [inaudible], and Brandon Curtis trying to prove that actually, the fee market was going to be fine. Then everything else, Ethereum stole it from us.
[00:31:14] P: Bastards.
[00:31:15] RG: Then, I think, when I read the article, one thing that popped to mind immediately was Shinobi and I have tweet argued about this in the past. Say you have a really large market maker who is running a really liquid Lightning node in between FMX, correct. He has direct channels with FMX, crack him and OKX, and it’s just sitting in between these three destinations, just routing arbitrage between all three of them.
Theoretically, that node in the middle could notice a bunch of flow being routed into the tracks, and maybe that’s usually correlated with a price dump on that exchange and could hold up funds that are supposed to be forwarded to different apps, short on the next exchange and then let the funds proceed onto FMX. That was the example that came to mind really, with regards to, I don’t know, we should have a – it should be rev or something, routing node extracted value. We’d have, I don’t know, something like that. I thought that was an interesting example that immediately popped to mind when I read the article, which is very good, and I recommend.
[00:32:24] V: Minor correction. It was not Bitcoin maximalist, Jim Prestwich. James Prestwich works on atomic swaps and Brandon Curtis was that radar relay, working on Lightning. Not quite the Bitcoin maximalist you’d expect.
[00:32:39] RG: Yeah. They’re Bitcoin pluralists, I guess, is probably the right word.
[00:32:45] P: I haven’t heard that one before.
[00:32:47] LN: Yeah. I don’t think many of those people work in a Bitcoin ecosystem now. I think, like Prestwich does a lot of work in –
[00:32:52] RG: Yeah. You’re both very right. The original MEV paper was all about Bitcoin. It was not about state folds, smart contract chains. They were actually, I remember they were really disappointed, because the point of writing the paper was they were trying to prove that actually, even with a we can see market, like Bitcoin’s long-term security budget went too far. Yeah, they found very close.
[00:33:14] JC: To try to turn this into more of a little more abstract conversation, I think what MEV actually is, it’s actually taint and metadata created. Basically, a form of privacy loss. If miners can gather enough data about that is anchored to Bitcoin transactions, they now have information that they can use to their advantage for selecting whether to include those type of transactions, or how much of my costs to include them in this thing.
It’s like, the way that you can avoid MEV is one, not using Bitcoin as an abstraction anchor. if you are going to do that, for example, anchor layers to it, anchor tokens to it, etc., anchor identities to it, these things will create MEV opportunities. That’s why there’s so much about Ethereum, because they have so much base layer abstraction going on throughout the smart contract.
[00:34:01] LN: Actually, I think I pushed back that a little bit. John, I think you point out a pretty good point, and one that I’ve forgotten. It’s actually in the article, is one of the core tenants of what creates these opportunities and that’s information. You were calling it meta data. I think, you can, even more general and just say, information in general.
Typically, that’s information about desired actions. When Ryan was talking about the rev, or the hub. Someone else have read my article and was like, I think, had the exact same reaction, that they call it the hub, hub extractable value, to just basically, the same idea. Basically, your centralized thing. You have access to flow, basically, as you have information. The thing is with a chain, so by sending transactions to a mempool, for example, you create mempools are by their nature, public to anyone.
That’s why the reach of the chain is any of your desired actions, or your order flow, so to speak. I think, maybe talking about it in terms of order flow, which is typically used when you talk about making stock transactions. It’s actually a nice way to term it. The reason for that is that it makes, I think, a lot of these issues easier to see in the practical application of them. Anyways, so when you have a mempool, so any layer one for the most part, based on the fact that it’s entirely distributed and there’s no centralization, any transactions that you’re looking to get mine, for the most part, you send through this public relay, transaction relay called the mempool.
I think, most chains, most layer ones have mempools. The way that you get around it is by set – if you put a transaction the mempool should say, then it becomes basically, public information. There’s this delay in time between when you make your information about the trade you want to make public and the time that trade is actually effectuated, or in blockchain speak, included in a block. Transaction processing on layer one is batched. It happened in batches and the speed at which those batches happen is usually the block times. In Bitcoin, that’s approximately every 10 minutes.
Anyways, so then you get back into what’s information like on a layer two? How much information? Who has privilege access to information flow on layer two, such as Lightning, for example? Lightning is actually, really private, provided you’re not doing this hub-centric thing, where all of your transactions are going through the same hub. That hub, maybe it’s actually some big exchanges, Lightning node, and so they’re looking at all of your transactions as they go through, and then they can use that Lightning transaction data to do arbitrage plays on their centralized exchange, or whatever, like some exchange that’s associated with Lightning, or that Lightning’s that interface to.
Anyways, ignoring that thing, if you’re just looking at it, the more single Lightning node has payments coming in and coming out of it, because of the way that the Lightning Network has been architected, it’s very difficult to know where those payments are coming from and who they’re going to as they pass through your node.
The information that you have about any transaction, that flows through, there’s a couple of things here. One is that any transaction that goes through the Lightning Network, in order for you to even know that happened for the most part, it needs to go through your node. Then, even if it doesn’t go through your node, you really have no idea where it originated from, or where its final destination is. That’s due to the way that the onion messages that are Lightning payments are sent through, or wrapped up, or packaged. Yeah. I think that this information, this idea about how much information are you publicizing and to who, is a really big and important part of the extractable value equation, so to speak.
[00:37:44] JC: I got a little bit less than what you were specifically – you said you were pushing back on something, so I’m not sure what you were disagreeing with. I’ll add just basically, the subtlety I was getting at is that I wasn’t trying to single out the Lightning Network necessarily, so much as say, when you anchor things to Bitcoin, if the miners are able to collect metadata about the activity that you may create MEV opportunities, or opportunities to have your transaction censored, etc.
This can be anything. It could be Lightning, etc. The idea would be to create abstractions, or abstraction networks that are difficult for miners to gather information about. That way, you are basically insulated from their ability to determine what exactly what you’re doing is, and whether it’s worth more to you than a plain old Bitcoin transaction.
[00:38:30] S: If I can hop in really quick. That’s the whole logic for why anything anchored on Bitcoin should be as distributed and decentralized as possible. That’s one of the big reasons why the notion of big central hubs is poo-pooed on, because too many players connected to that offers that operator an opportunity to push things to chain, actively disrupt what’s going on-chain and take advantage of that economically, if they have hash raid.
[00:38:57] V: John, I want to see a fully integrated Lightning miner. I don’t support zero conf, but I want negative conf, where I can directly get the block reward into a Lightning, usable output and use it in Lightning before those hundred blocks. Yeah, that’s pretty much it.
[00:39:14] JC: I think, I could work with you on that. We’ll do a business development with blockchain.
[00:39:18] P: That’s it. Nobody else has any thoughts?
[00:39:20] V: No, zero conf, though. Just only negative a hundred confs.
[00:39:23] RG: One thing that I think is an interesting counterpoint to, when you think about the design of a Bitcoin and Lightning and how much is whereas decentralized and distributed as possible, where we try as best as we can to include privacy as a default in every layer of the, stack, etc., etc.
I can tell you, that explicit and state that a bunch of the proof of stake investors envision is all of the biggest citadel securities was famously, everybody learned that they do the pay for order flow on Robinhood stuff. Explicitly, the goal for the proof of stake validators is for citadel securities to be a proof of stake validator, and you have to pay them some form of institutionalized MEV in order to get your trade in on Eth 2.0, Solana, you name it.
That is the end state that they’re building towards, which I think is jus, philosophically, hilariously unaligned with what we’re trying to do here. Rather than institutionalize and enshrine the current power structure, build an entirely new one from the ground up that, the respect, social opportunity and decentralization. Just an interesting point to point out.
[00:40:23] LN: I think, you can make an argument today that the fees that you paid of miners to get them included in block is extractable value, right? I haven’t read this paper that it’s off, the amount of stuff. It sounds like I’ve got a little more reading to do there. I think that in one light, you can look at any fees that you pay to miners as bribes, right? You’re basically driving a miner to put your transactions to the block and you’re competing with every other person attempting to get a transaction on block at the same time with you, to be basically, win out that block space.
If one of those, let’s say there’s someone who’s got a transaction, and they’re paying a little bit less of a bribe than you are, but they have a good relationship with a miner, then they could definitely maybe pull on some social capital to tell the asset miner to include it, your third transaction in a block, and such that the next block is that miner has this transaction that doesn’t pay what’s considered the going bribery for getting your transactions into a block.
I think that by design, I think that Bitcoin is miner extractable value system. There’s a lot of different things at play here that I think people have pointed out, which I like really great, important, such as how decentralized you are really matters. Because if there was a centralized miner, who got to decide the ultimate arbitrator of who goes in what block, and when then you would basically, at their whim, where because there’s a healthy competition and you merch it between a bunch of different miners, one miner can’t really prevent your transaction from getting mined. You hoping that there’s another miner somewhere on the system that’s still playing by the most fees that they can get rules, so to speak.
You can get your transaction mined eventually by one of these honest miners, honest being the only extractable value that they accept is this wasn’t built into the protocol, which is the mining fees. I think at this point, we’re still – we’re a little far away from Lightning, so I apologize. Hopefully, it’s interesting enough. I don’t know.
[00:42:24] P: I think it’s fascinating. How’s everybody else feeling?
[00:42:27] V: I’m feeling very adversarial. How do I make sure I get my, I guess, commitment transaction finalized and mined? Not broadcast it, but directly submitted into a block, to a miner out of band?
[00:42:44] RG: Yeah. You got to bribe them. That’s what flash bots is all about.
[00:42:47] P: Accelerators.
[00:42:48] V: Sweet. Wash always can’t phase me?
[00:42:51] RG: Yeah, bro. All the miners live in Austin now. You just got to knock on their door and be like, “Hey, man. Block 700,056.”
[00:42:58] P: Get it done. Yeah, totally.
[00:43:01] V: Texas has a monopoly on block space, or block weight. Heard it here first.
[00:43:05] P: It’s funny, I’ve been into pay pays for a while now, but people love to say, “Oh, Ethereum based NFTs, that’s the first thing ever.” It’s all total horseshit, because of course, this has been done on Bitcoin for ages. It’s really funny, because, of course, NFTs on Bitcoin, which were the first NFTs, and I hate that term, are they’re on the counterparty protocol, which some top of Bitcoin is a layer one. They’re all just Bitcoin transactions.
If there’s a specific pay pay that you really want, you can go look on the counterparty chain, which is of course, just on top of the Bitcoin chain. It’s not even a layer two. You can just increase your fee above what the person who has already bid against you has done, and just shove your transaction through ahead of them, which is not the same thing as what you’re talking about, Lisa, but reminds of it.
[00:43:47] JC: Did you say pay?
[00:43:49] P: Somebody was just making fun of me for this. Yeah. I say pay, as opposed to Pepe. Apparently, that’s not how you’re supposed to say it.
[00:43:55] V: He’s starting a new app called Pay.
[00:43:58] P: That’s P-P-A-Y. You send your money to it and you never see it again. That’s how that works. It’s good stuff. Okay.
[00:44:04] JC: Called Ppay.
[00:44:08] P: I was joking, it would be called PP. Cool. What else? What else we got?
[00:44:12] JC: Still taking the piss, P.
[00:44:14] P: Never. That’s literally not possible for me.
[00:44:16] RG: I showed up late, but what were – I guess, we already did all the El Salvador stuff. My take on El Salvador is man, it’s not perfect, but all things together, I was hugely impressed with how smooth everything rolled out. From the companies on the ground, how prepared specifically, the private businesses that are operating in there, the open nodes, the Alex Mercados, everybody was ready.
They weren’t hugely deluged, and nobody had nodes going offline. There was for a brief moment, people’s nodes were getting dossed, but they were able to figure it out and get up and running. Yes, it’s not the perfect self-custody, everybody runs their own node future that we’re all hoping for. All told, I was pretty impressed.
[00:44:58] V: I was pretty impressed, too, that they responded so quickly to Matt Aalborg and Keith. They fixed it. I thought that was a funny troll.
[00:45:06] RG: That was awesome. Yeah. There are smart people down there that are paying attention, that are trying to do a good job. Frankly, I was worried. I didn’t know if Chivo was even going to launch Lightning support at all. It hasn’t been perfect and definitely, there’s a lot of private terms, etc. etc. I think, it’s a huge testament to everybody that’s been working on this network for three years, that the first main transaction was very end of 2017, very start of 2018.
Then three and a half years later, we have a full nation states, slowly being onboarded. People say, that Lightning is moving too slow. I think, we’ve done a pretty good job. When I say we, people who actually are building the thing.
[00:45:43] P: Now, you’re not giving yourself enough credit, man. I also want to welcome Artur to the stage, Co-Founder of Paxful. How’s it going it, man?”
[00:45:48] AS: Oh, hey. What’s up guys? Thanks for inviting. It’s 2:00 A.M. here. I’m in Estonia in north Europe. Good discussion here. I like it. I like where’s it going. Look, we’re going to have a big news tomorrow. Our PR team told that we’re not allowed to say, but I guess we can all guess what it’s going to be about. Tomorrow, we’re going to make it public. Thanks for Lightning Labs team to help us along the way.
We actually, will get a faster than crack and we’re going to be one of the big exchanges to release you know what. Oh, and look, regarding El Salvador, look, we have a guy on the grounds. He says same thing as on Reddit Bitcoin, that Chivo is not working. People don’t like the government app. It’s tracking user PII data, all that stuff. It’s our chance to build them better products, because, okay, there’s this open nodes, non-custodial solution. That is awesome for the merchants, but there’s space for more, for Paxful wallets, for POS merchant solutions, for example, there’s a guy, he has 20 shoe stores. He says, “Oh, I want to accept Bitcoin, or Lightning, but I want to cash it out into my bank account.”
That’s what we need to provide them, while a wallet is still not great. It’s buggy. Some people simply don’t want to use it. I still find it super exciting that where the El Salvador is going to be in five to 10 years. Because honestly, you guys just talk now about this NFT and all this other blockchains, like Solana and Ethereum. What’s happening there, I did play around. I confess. Eventually, yeah. These are fun blockchains, right? They’re fast. Look, I’m not going to show anything. Look, eventually things will move to Lightning, because Bitcoin is still the most fairly distributed, no prima, nothing. People will realize, it’s much faster transaction per seconds, like what? 25 million transactions per second in Lightning. Imagine smart contracts on that.
It will be literally less than one SATs price for every transaction then. I don’t know how long. It’s going to take time. Look, I do bet that all this other blockchains will be obsolete. That’s my long-term prediction, the world we’re going to live in.
[00:48:08] P: Yeah, I agree. I think that the benefits of Bitcoin and Lightning and all the exciting stuff that’s happening there, RGB protocol, see if that actually does what it’s supposed to do in terms of NFTs, but I think it’s all going to roll back into Bitcoin. It’s interesting.
[00:48:20] JC: I also agree that shitcoins, like Solana and NFT stuff are all garbage and everybody should pay attention to. I agree with that, too.
[00:48:27] P: Yup. A 100%.
[00:48:29] RG: It’s one of those things where you think about the network effects and the real changes that we’re making in new people’s lives, just by allowing instant and at Lightning fee rates. Ruben says from the US to El Salvador, allowing these people to be banked and not have to deal with physical cash anymore. It’s a much longer-term play than the short-term gains of flipping NFTs, but just in the trenches the protocol and it trenches Bitcoin and the psyche of the world and in people’s daily lives in just such a different deeper way. Seeing this stuff play out and seeing all the people that have started their own businesses on Paxful, and have given themselves jobs and employed other people will see the platform that Artur has provided for them. It makes such a bigger difference and it will be such a longer lasting impact.
I think, you see, the evidence of that and how quickly Nigeria and the massive surge in peer-to-peer trading volume in Nigeria, and how many people running Bitcoin there over the last couple of years. They’ve contributed, I think, a very large amount of that actually. It’s stuff that [inaudible 00:49:33] just going to compound. They’re just going to keep growing as a protocol.
One thing, more actually the other day that I thought was like, they really stuck with me, is this fiat payment rails are only going to get worse. They’re only going to get more politicized, only having to have higher fees. Lightning payment rails are only going to get better. They’re the worst that they’ve ever been today, and there’s tons of brain power involved in making them better and better. I think, we’re in a really good spot right now and the gap that we have, a little competition is only increasing.
[00:50:02] AS: Yeah. Look, I’ll bring an example. Ryan, yeah, you said it well. Basically, on Paxful, you could be doing the same thing you can do with Lightning already for the past six years. We’re not the first one. How it works. You can buy Bitcoin in US for PayPal, and then right away, sell that Bitcoin in Japan for the bank transfer, but you do that within one platform.
Now with Lightning, that Jack Mallers is saying, and others that basically, different apps are talking to each other openly. Before, it was flat, or plaid, however you’d say. It was connecting the banks, different banks. Now, it’s Lightning is connecting different wallets that have a fiat on-ramp and fiat off-ramp in whatever jurisdiction. That means Swift will be obsolete. You don’t even need that. You would just need a local wallet in US. You do the instant on-ramp and then you do the cash out in Africa, for example, in Nigeria, in Kenya with the local wallet there.
That means the payment networks, the local ones will be a ruling, right? You don’t need Swift for that, because it’s an on-ramp with the local payment network in one country. Then off-ramp with the local payment network in another country, M-Pesa in Kenya, ACH or Fed Wire in US, or whatever hacks people have done that the technology behind Zell, I know some companies have basically, reverse engineered Zell technology and that’s how they have this instant payouts.
[00:51:32] P: John, speak your piece, my friend.
[00:51:34] JC: I have nothing to say. What do you mean?
[00:51:38] P: You just tweeted a hilarious tweet at. What was that in response to?
[00:51:41] JC: I didn’t just tweet it. I tweeted it five minutes ago. No, I just think that we should be able to tweet the shit emoji when people are talking about shitcoins.
[00:51:48] P: Fair enough. Fair enough. I agree.
[00:51:50] AS: Look, guys. Here’s one point. I had a talk with one guy who was a FinTech developer. He said, centralized services are usually faster, even the Swift should be faster, but because of all the regulations or whatever, overhead on top, it’s slower than Lightning. He’s correct. Centralized services should be faster than decentralized. Lightning is faster. It works against that logic.
[00:52:12] W: Question.
[00:52:13] P: Go for it. Walton.
[00:52:15] W: If a Lightning node runner is already using Thor and Watchtowers, what can they do to improve the privacy and security respectively?
[00:52:25] P: I think, the biggest things are just not doing, we do in PlebNet and not docs – the fact that we’ve all associated our telegram handles with our nodes, or register on Amboss, or things like that massively degrades your privacy. If you’re really focused on privacy, or do it like Jimmy Song, or any number of other people who are running Lightning nodes do, which is they run large Lightning nodes, but they just don’t associate them with their identities in any way.
[00:52:46] RG: Yeah. I think, one additional thing that can really help is actually, the node that has all the public channels have that just be a gateway, or a proxy node that’s sitting in front of your real node. It just has a private channel with your proxy node. The only node that you’re your real node where you’re actually receiving the payments to, and creating invoices and stuff like that and making payments out of, never broadcasts on the gossip network. You have this fake proxy network, proxy node in front of it that does all of the public cost of communications. I think that’s a pretty good architecture, if you want to keep your real node where your application logic is done totally private and unannounced from the rest of the network.
They’re like, your only vulnerability is you would have to do some work to keep your real, like the application node, not the gateway node to keep that pokey from being listed in the invoice, with big TLC interceptor and a couple of other things. You can mask that, but it is hard.
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[EPISODE CONTINUED]
[00:57:44] P: All right. What else? What else we got?
[00:57:47] M: Hello. Hey, can I speak?
[00:57:48] P: Yes, I forgot you were there. I’m sorry, Miguel. Yes, please. You are focused on El Salvador. Give us your thoughts.
[00:57:53] M: Yeah, in El Salvador. Yeah. I am very bullish on Bitcoin, but because you were talking about the Chivo app and everything, right?
[00:58:02] P: We were originally, yeah.
[00:58:04] M: Even though I’m super bullish on Bitcoin, I don’t have the Chivo app. First, because it has not been enabled on my phone. I have a Note 10 and I can download the app. That sucks. Regardless of if I cannot download the app or not, I’m not using the Chivo app, because I don’t trust the government. I think that’s one of the reasons as to why people is in Bitcoin, because they don’t trust the institutions.
I wanted to ask you people in the space, there is a solution that would be similar to Chivo app in the sense that it’s decentralized, and that you have your own keys. Also, you can exchange Bitcoin for whatever token, or fiat, or fiat token that you can, because you can supposedly do that on the Chivo app. Also, that supports Lightning payments. Because, for example, I have Blue wallet, but again, that’s the centralized in Lightning.
I can convert my Bitcoin to dollars on Blue. Or for example, I have trust wallet in which it’s decentralized, and at the same time, I can exchange my Bitcoin for whatever I want, but I don’t have Lightning, or I could use Chivo, but it’s centralized. It’s not your keys, not your crypto. I have to rely on the government. is there something out there that could meet those requirements? If not, I think that, because we have been talking about the future.
[00:59:34] P: Wait. Sorry. Can you restate the requirements that you’re interested in?
[00:59:37] S: I think, what you’re looking for would be a Lightning wallet that had stablecoin support and a marketplace where people could do atomic swaps between say, Bitcoin and tethered USD.
[00:59:50] M: Yeah. That is pretty much what I’m asking for.
[00:59:53] P: John, did you just wave to signal agreement, or did you had a comment?
[00:59:58] JC: Just waving my hands.
[01:00:00] P: Got it. Yeah. I don’t know of any that are that offer that support. Does anyone else?
[01:00:05] JC: Shinobi’s totally right. You need exactly what you described. I do think what you described should exist. I don’t think it exists, other than maybe somewhat indirectly through a shitcoin wallet. There are multi-coin wallets that have also have stablecoins and stuff, but they’re not really doing a dedicated Bitcoin experience, even if you – generally, when you’re asking for the capability to convert your Bitcoin and your Lightning Bitcoin into dollars somehow, you’re going to need a service, which means that you’re going to have to trust a service with your money, while they’re convert it.
[01:00:34] M: I thought, the point of somehow Bitcoin was for it to be a trustless system. For example, even if you’re using Lightning, you’re not really trusting anybody.
[01:00:46] JC: You didn’t ask for trustless. You asked for dollars.
[01:00:49] P: Lightning is not fully trustless. There’s trade-offs at every step. If you want fully trustless, the most secure, then you’re going to go with layer one on-chain transactions, but then there’s trade-offs there. If you’re willing to give up a slight amount of that –
[01:01:01] JC: Generally speaking, it’s a 100% possible to hold US dollars in a trustless way digitally.
[01:01:06] P: There you go.
[01:01:08] M: Yeah. That sort of makes sense. Yeah. I guess, since donors come from institutions, we have to trust them, which is the opposite for Bitcoin. I guess, that’s why we’re here. That’s good.
[01:01:19] JC: Yeah. You need to trust your custodian as a bank, or you trust Tether to hold the dollars they say they hold, etc. You end up, to have a digital dollar, you have to trust.
[01:01:27] M: Okay. Yeah. That makes sense. I just put it out there as a business idea, or a map idea. If you can manage to have all those features, that would be great for the feature.
[01:01:39] JC: I think, it’s an excellent idea.
[01:01:40] RG: Yeah John, I think you should run with that. That’s a really good idea.
[01:01:44] M: Because you have all of it, right? You have the Dexus, you have the decentralized wallets and you have the Lightning wallet. It’s just about putting it altogether in one place, which to me would be really almost as if everybody’s running their own node. Maybe that doesn’t necessarily let you run it by yourself, because that requires technical things. So that it does it for you, just like Muun wallet does. Well, the way I see it, that would be the future for Bitcoin for me.
I live in the country where it’s legal. Because that way, it really is trustless. It really is something that I can also, yeah, for the long-term you can HODL. For everyday transactions, you can’t really use Bitcoin for everyday transactions. If you’re losing money day-to-day, unless –
[01:02:34] P: Wait, sorry. Why can’t you use Bitcoin over Lightning for everyday transactions?
[01:02:37] M: In the sense, let’s say that, I don’t know. I want to get a Big Mac for $5 and I only have $6 on my Bitcoin Lightning account, then I don’t know. Bitcoin goes down 10% and I couldn’t change it, because I don’t have anything to change it to.
[01:02:55] P: That’s not something that needs to be supported directly in a wallet. If you want to exchange it, it would be cool. I agree. It’d be a pretty awesome idea. I think those are separate.
[01:03:01] JC: I think, Miguel, if everybody, even in El Salvador, and I don’t care how poor anybody is there. Even if they just use Bitcoin for a little while, you’ll eventually get enough Bitcoin, if you use it as your form of savings and you can save any amount. You’ll eventually get to accumulate an amount where the volatility will matter less and less, and you’ll be more and more comfortable with holding the Bitcoin.
I think over the decades also, the Bitcoin will just become less volatile overall. Yeah, volatility is an issue. That is a huge reason why stablecoins are popular. That’s why they’re also very popular in countries that have bad stability for their own currency, a lot of high inflation and things like this. I think that you are correct, that the answer would be to try to make this better than current trusted solutions by incorporating atomic swaps and coordinating atomic swaps across people in private ways.
We’re still some ways away from that. There were a lot of people working on adding capabilities for tokens and to be on Lightning. There are multiple projects trying to do that. There are multiple trial projects trying to make atomic swapping better in general for Bitcoiners. Then coordinating all of that stuff in the future, but it’s not here now. I think that you have to be patient and you’ll see it come.
[01:04:12] M: All right. Salamat. That’s great insight. I guess, I’ll just wait. I’ll just HODL for now. Because I do want to use the Lightning to pay for stuff right now. I was so excited about it, but at the same time, I don’t feel like, unless I use the Chivo app, I feel I cannot do it, because I don’t have a Lightning wallet that I could hedge against the volatility.
[01:04:33] RG: Miguel, I do think, I don’t know if they have it live yet, but I do know that the Bitcoin Beach wallet is working on allowing you to hold a USD denominated balance in their wallet. I don’t know if it’s live yet. I do know that they’re working on it, though. You might try the Bitcoin Beach wallet and see if that’s available.
[01:04:50] M: All right. Yeah.
[01:04:51] JC: Since you specifically mentioned hedging your volatility, since you word it that way, we would probably should mention DLCs, people like atomic beds and tonic. I think, become atonic loans now. Because they’re trying to make a product that would allow you to specifically hedge through having a bet construction using Bitcoin. That might be a way that you could at least lock in a Bitcoin price at a certain dollar value, entering one of those contracts. Of course, there is some risk there, but you can control the risk.
[01:05:19] P: Yeah, DLCs are really fascinating. I can’t wait until we have them over Lightning.
[01:05:24] M: Maybe I could rephrase this question. Maybe you’ll get more ideas. Maybe if you work –
[01:05:30] P: Go ahead. I’m going to – Miguel, I’m just going to say, one more – I’m going to ask you to rephrase it one more time and then I want to move us on, because we don’t have too much more time. Go ahead.
[01:05:38] M: Yeah, of course. If your salary was being paid in Bitcoin right now, what would you do? You have a salary. You work for money.
[01:05:48] JC: I’ll tell you exactly what I’d do.
[01:05:50] M: [Inaudible 01:05:50] in USD, or whatever – yeah, money that you –
[01:05:54] P: Ryan go ahead. I think, Miguel, we got the concept. Basically, if you’re paid in BTC, what do you do if you need dollars to interact with your life? Ryan, you were going to chime in.
[01:06:02] JC: It was me.
[01:06:02] P: Oh, I’m sorry, John. Go ahead, John.
[01:06:07] JC: I’ve been getting paid in Bitcoin for, I don’t know, three years or something like this. I don’t remember, three or four years. Then, I was living off of Bitcoin before that. Very simple formula. You get paid, you decide how much money you need to spend until the next time you get paid in dollars, you sell that much the day you get paid, so that way you don’t think about whether you sold it right or the wrong price, because you don’t want to be a trader, because that’s a bad idea.
You just have only enough cash to live for month-to-month. Or, if you have a little more money and you have a little better savings, you maybe save two months out, or you save two months out, plus some emergency amount that you think you just want to have handy in case something happens. You just maneuver this way. Then if you can, if you want to start optimizing and keeping things out of dollars, you can also do things, like buy gift cards for whatever bills, or sorry, not bills, but cellphone services and different shopping you might do online. That way, you can stay outside of banking, if you want to.
[01:07:01] P: There you go.
[01:07:01] M: Thank you. That is actually great. I’m new to this space, right? This helps a lot. Thank you, guys, for listening and answering my questions, because this is great. Thanks, John. Because your experience is going to help me decide what I’m doing now in the future. Salamat.
[01:07:19] P: Absolutely, Miguel. I know, you and I have chatted back and forth in the back-end and a lot of the conversations about El Salvador. Definitely appreciate you jumping up and asking questions. They’re important ones. Ryan, you I don’t think, answered the question of what are some things that you are particularly excited about related to Lightning, or that you’re angry about, or that do fall asleep crying about.
[01:07:41] RG: I’m particularly excited, just about adoption, about all the new people that are getting into the space. I think, we’ve been hammering in our blog and all sorts of stuff on the PlebNet all year. All of the new people that are getting excited about Lightning with this price run-up, I think, it’s really exciting. It’s much needed. I can tell you, not only am I excited as a business development person, but the protocol developers are excited that we have new blood and new ideas, new people that are testing out their software and are using it on a daily basis. Particularly, the expansion into Latin America, not just El Salvador, but Brazil, Argentina, Chile West Africa, Vietnam and Paxful in Nigeria, Ghana.
Just getting more people into the space, getting more people interested, which inevitably leads to more developers, into more startups. I’m just really excited for the unknowns that are going to pop up over the next six months, that are come out of going to come out of this surge of adoption. There’s Lightning Labs and Blockstream, Sync, Square Crypto. Of course, we have really long-time horizons that we’re thinking about, and the stuff that we’re excited about over the next three to five years, in terms of protocol development.
Bringing in new people, enthusiastic people, talented people, young people that want to change things up and make them work, and throw a wrench into those plans, I think, is really exciting. Especially, protocol developers, I think they would even admit, have a tendency to get a little ivory tower, especially with the long-time horizon, and then thinking about the perfect protocol position and rapid rabbit holing and incentives, and all this stuff. Having real people use your real technology on a daily basis to buy coffee and stuff like that, just forces you to focus on the here and now about, what can we do to make sure that this El Salvador experiment works? What can we do to make sure that people with four or five-year-old Android phones in Ghana can run their own nodes? What can we do to solve these problems for people today, I think is really exciting and we’ll pay just enormous dividends going forward.
[01:09:42] P: I love it. I love it. Yeah. I’m super bullish on Lightning adoption and people getting more and more excited about it. Walton, a bunch of us all got together and started PlebNet, because we were super excited. We wanted to learn about it together and it grew into this much larger thing. I think, that I’m really excited about the developments there in terms of running neutrino nodes on your phone, and all of the platforms that are out there that make it easier and easier to run your own Lightning node. These are heady times. It’s quite amazing.
I’m also particularly excited about, there’s a new series that Lisa and the folks over at Blockstream are releasing about c-lightning development and the plugin architecture there. There’s some really awesome stuff being done on LND. It’s an exciting time to be running a Lightning node and to be seeing Lightning adoption increase dramatically all over the world.
[01:10:26] RG: One other thing that is really much more concrete, the answer I just gave was very flowery and high-level. One thing that I’ve always desperately wanted is death to subscription paywalls. I think, now, we have the infrastructure for the Lightning Network at a good enough place, where you’re going to start seeing a pro tip. I hope I’m not leaking anything. I don’t think that I am. If you download the Zebedee browser extension and go to Andre Neves’ profile page on Twitter, it’s pretty cool. I think, we’re going to see a lot more Lightning tipping, embedded natively in the web, like that showing up pretty soon.
[01:11:05] P: I did not know that they had a Chrome extension. Yeah. The guys at Zebedee are doing some incredible stuff.
[01:11:10] RG: Check it out. It’s public, because they’ve tweeted about it a little bit. If you look at my profile pic with the little Lightning and then my Zebedee Lightning address thing, again, there’s of course, concerns privacy-wise here and brings them TLS, all that stuff, yada, yada, yada, just the experience of being able to browse somebody’s Twitter page and being able to tip them directly over Lightning with all I had to put in there was just this, I don’t know, 20 characters or something like that. I think, it’s going to blow people’s minds as far as how far the infrastructure has come. I don’t know when they’re going to make a big announcement about it, but it’s working and I think it’s going to be the next couple days.
[01:11:48] P: Wait. That is so cool. Just to be clear, what did you have to change? You just basically put your Zebedee wallet address or something in your profile?
[01:11:55] RG: Yup. Yeah. My Lightning address, my Zebedee wallet. Yeah. I tested it out earlier. If you browse to on the browser, if you go to Andre specific, his page, I know it works for his page, because I looked at it and a little Lightning tip button pops up, if you have the Chrome extension installed. I expect, that will be rolled out for more Chrome extensions going forward.
[01:12:14] P: Basically, the Chrome extension scans the page, finds the Zebedee address and then automatically inserts a button, so that you can just tip him really easily?
[01:12:21] RG: Yeah. It’s fucking sweet.
[01:12:22] P: It’s pretty neat. Yeah, I think, the user experience for a lot of these tools has been, like a software engineer, I’m like, “Oh, no problem. I’ll SSH into my machine and smash my head against the wall for three hours before figuring it out.” Obviously, for adoption, we need much smoother experiences. I think, a lot of the full node, and Chino node, phone wallets that have these really beautiful experiences and this stuff is really important. It’s exciting.
[01:12:44] RG: Yeah. The Lighting address thing, too, again, it has its qualms and its trade-offs, etc., etc. Just the experience of having getting rid of the noises and just having a human readable Lightning address, I think there’s just a game-changer for normies, and making it approachable and making it something, I don’t know. Andre has been just producing all kinds of crazy, amazing new stuff in the last two months. I don’t know what’s gotten into his wheaties in the morning, but he’s just been shipping all kinds of new features. Excited to see what they have next.
[01:13:14] P: I will say, I’ve been super excited about the BOLT 12 stuff that Rusty Russell is working on. We did a Space with him a little while back. I think, BOLT 12 is going to be game-changing as well.
[01:13:24] RG: Yeah. There’s that flow. Anything with the end state of what’s good for users is this permanent reusable invoice, or static address, static QR code type thing. However, the development community, that decision is far beyond my pay grade of which is the proposal ends up going forward. However, we get to that end state, where you can have, ideally, a privacy preserving, but in practical matters, just a static, a Lightning address, I think is just huge for adoption. That’s been the dream of Internet-based micropayments for forever, because you can just put an address out there, like your email address, and people can just tip you for content that you posted months ago.
[01:14:02] P: All right. I want to try to end us relatively on time today, which will be, I don’t want to say a first, but it’s very infrequent. Let’s go around for the speakers that are up here and give some closing thoughts. Brian, you want to give us your closing thoughts? Although, you just did, but –
[01:14:17] S: I know. I just did. I’ll be brief though. Things are going well, but we need more help. We need more developers. We need more people doing business development, and we need more people doing marketing. If you’re sitting on the sidelines listening to this, and you are passionate about Lightning, like I think, literally every single Lightning company is hiring. I think, literally, every Bitcoin company is hiring right now. It’s time to quit your fiat job. It’s time to come work on Bitcoin full-time. If they have that resume and CV, and start applying.
We need to help, and now is the time to jump in. I can tell you, having joined not a Bitcoin company, but a crypto company in spring of 2018, once the bear market kicks in, those job posting disappear in a hurry. They don’t come back for a couple years. If you’re at all interested in working on Bitcoin full-time and you have any work close to the requisite skills, strongly recommend applying immediately. Even just to say that you did it, because we need more help. People are hiring and yeah, it’s a very exciting time to be working on Bitcoin.
[01:15:14] P: I could not agree with you more. I literally just did exactly that. Exciting stuff.
[01:15:18] S: By the way.
[01:15:19] P: Thank you. Salamat. I’m super pumped. The conference is going to be amazing. Walton.
[01:15:25] W: Yeah. I think, we’ve mentioned PlebNet a couple of times, but I don’t think we mentioned how people can find PlebNet. What I’d like to remind, is that they can simply go to kyc.jelly.com. That is kycjelly.com. Salamat. I’m done speaking.
[01:15:43] P: That’s an internal joke, because we’re all so fixated on privacy and OPSEC and stuff. We never tell anybody the number of Bitcoin we have, things like that. Then, when we started PlebNet, we were all like, “All right, here’s my node. Check on my liquidity.” We were just throwing channels around. The joke was, we called the KYC jelly, because it was funny. Artur, what are your thoughts?
[01:16:04] AS: Yeah, sure. It was a really good discussion. Ryan said, we are so early. It’s time to join the Lightning space, the Bitcoin space. Forget all the shitcoins and what is happening. They’re all that circle jerk with the farming, and so on. That’s not adding any value to the world. This thing, what we’re doing now is actually, building a better world.
Speaking of that, we are so early, which means that, honestly, the infrastructure is getting there. There’s some good development happening, but we are so early. It’s like 2013 in Bitcoin. Remember blockchain info got their first API? When I used it first time, it was get address and get merchants. They were the only API that was available. It was so clunky. I remember that. I’m not saying we’re in a similar situation now. We’re in a much better situation. Again, the user experience, the developer experience needs to be improved.
I understand, it takes time. We’re all building that. That’s the one thing, right? The infrastructure layer, we are building now. The second is Miguel said, he needs a useful product. One thing is we talk about tech here. Another thing is we need to talk how to solve actual problems for users, for people. How do we basically, abstract out Lightning and Bitcoin for people? I know, it sounds cheesy to we abstract it out, but we should give people choice. If they want to – I see said, Miguel, he wants to transact in some stable value, like USD. Let’s say, it’s a temporary thing, until the post fee at world, where Bitcoin Lightning will be the world currency, we have to think here as well, how do we make Lightning and Bitcoin without wallets, but a physical cash, so you can exchange with each other cash? Like in a movie Time, where you can –
[01:18:00] P: Wait, wait, wait, wait. You said two things I think are interesting. One, the idea that there needs to be physical representations of Lightning.
[01:18:07] AS: Exactly. Physical cash.
[01:18:09] P: I disagree, man.
[01:18:10] AS: No? Look, the electronic wallets, it’s durability. You have to solve all these things. I was thinking, NFC and E Inc., and then you can tap to each other. Basically, you don’t need Internet connection. That is the point. Because look, I was now in Nigeria, in these far villages and they have this POS systems. The agents who exchange cash with them, mobile money. We need solutions for them.
Okay, there’s Blockstream. They launched the satellite. That’s awesome. I’m sure they’re thinking ahead as well, but you don’t need Internet to connect to the Bitcoin blockchain with the Blockstream satellite, they will do the same with Lightning. The solution will come there. There’s a need. I see that. Hundred SATs on a physical form, or whatever material is going to be, like [inaudible 01:18:56], NFC or something. I have no idea, but there will be something.
[01:19:01] JC: Any physical form Bitcoin will end up being essentially, a form of hardware wallet. I think, the closest we’ve got so far is open dime, where you have this walkable and detectable, if it’s been on lock, little USB device that has Bitcoin on it. You can use that like cash.
[01:19:17] AS: Interesting. Yeah. There has to be a guarantee that you have not used it. I can just look at –
[01:19:22] JC: The only guarantee is if you actually connect to the network. You never know for sure, until you connect to the network.
[01:19:28] P: All right, everyone. I’m going to close this out for the day. Thank you, again, so much for joining, and I’ll see you all next week.
