這是最近在 Twitter Spaces 上 Alex Gladstein 和 Jaime Garcia 就薩爾瓦多總統是否正在製定威權政策進行辯論的完整記錄。
在這裡收聽這一集:
成績單
[00:00:05 ] 問:今天我很高興介紹我們的客人。我們將從您好，加西亞開始，他是薩爾瓦多移民，現居住在加拿大，他撰寫了大量關於現任總統及其比特幣推出的文章。
[00:00:32] Jamie Garcia:我在加拿大的一家保險公司工作，只是一個普通的平民。你知道，只是一個普通的喬，賺錢並支付我的賬單，如果月底還有剩餘的話，可以節省一些坐席。
[00:00:48] 問:另一方面HRF 的首席戰略官加入了我們的談話，他撰寫了無數關於比特幣如何幫助當今人們的文章。現在，即使它可能不一定是你如何使用它的最前沿，以及比特幣領域每個人的必讀文章的作者，檢查你的財務特權。
[00:01:14] Jamie Garcia:謝謝你的邀請。
[00:01:16] 問:我想首先讓你們每個人都有機會就這次談話發表開場白以確定你們每個人將討論硬幣的哪一面。
然後我們將深入研究 Nayib 的行為，僅 Nayib 的行為。然後將其擴展到他的行為如何影響薩爾瓦多和薩爾瓦多人，然後進一步將其擴展到這將如何影響比特幣。
[00:02:16] Jamie Garcia:是的，謝謝。你知道，就像對我一樣，你知道，我希望這不是一場辯論，而是一場對話，一場對話。所以，你知道，作為薩爾瓦多人，我大部分時間都在國外生活，作為內戰八十年代的流亡者，你知道，我可以肯定地承認，我不僅擁有很多社會特權，而且還擁有很多經濟特權.
所以，你知道，實際情況完全不同，但我也經歷過。我知道在那裡是什麼感覺。我和我提供薩爾瓦多人的觀點，薩爾瓦多人，作為僑民的一部分，和許多人一樣，是僑民的一部分，希望看到這個國家的進步。我們中的許多人都覺得比特幣是一種實現方式。
對。所以，你知道，密切關注該國如何處理安全個人自由、財務自由的發展。對我來說，你知道，我不像比特幣中的一些人，Twitter 聲稱，而不是一種狀態。我不是 B Kelly 或他的政府的推動者，但我絕對是什麼時候完成的支持者。
對。我有批評嗎?當然，但到目前為止，我認為我也會，有一條好的道路，你知道，如果它在這條道路上並且如果它改變，那麼我將繼續支持，我會，我的想法，我會改變我的外表。我一定會寫下來。
[00:03:57] Alex Gladstein:對不起，伙計們。感謝您的款待。是的，我的意思是，我在這方面的很多細微差別都來自我去年所做的研究和報告，這是在比特幣雜誌的一篇名為村莊和強人的文章中，我會鼓勵這樣做。大家去看看吧。歸根結底，這一切都與 Elante 社區中的少數真正令人印象深刻的人有關，他們幫助實現了這一切。
我會，我真的會相信這場運動，而不是反對給，給政府。有些事情我可能會同意 BKA 支持者開始選擇比特幣作為第二種貨幣，而不是一些 CBDC 項目，或者，你知道，中國聯盟很棒。我認為這是他們提供 IM 替代方案的功勞。
非常好。這是一個機構，你知道，在某種程度上蹂躪了世界上的很多地方並加以利用，幾十年來將資源從貧窮國家輸送到富裕國家，利用地熱和火山進行採礦。太棒了，好主意。讓我們根據這個非常有趣的想法來研究和實施潛在的出售債券。
我希望它能解決攻擊匯款，這是剝削性的，你知道，太貴了等等。很好的主意。將薩爾瓦多放在地圖上。我的意思是，這是 que 的一項重大成就，是的，如果你沒有這樣做，顯然沒有人會談論薩爾瓦多。最後你知道，強調美國在薩爾瓦多所扮演的角色，美國外交政策在薩爾瓦多所扮演的破壞性角色。
這些都是我可能會做的事情，你知道，同意花束支持者的觀點。那我就有分歧了，對吧?所以歸根結底，你知道，我喜歡比特幣的原因是，你知道，基本上是因為，它會把錢和國家分開。我認為國家對比特幣的採用和企業對比特幣的採用是其採用機制的結果。
我認為我們不需要為政府的採用而歡呼。你知道，這加快了這個過程。我認為我們不必為加快這一進程的公司歡呼。我認為我們應該只關注個人自由。這就是比特幣的全部意義所在。而且，這就是薩爾瓦多最令人擔憂的地方。
我的意思是，我認為這對比特幣人來說可能是這樣的，你做什麼，你做什麼，怎麼做。你如何看待美國的反恐戰爭?很多聽的人可能是美國人。我的意思是，用自由和隱私換取安全，這是一個公平的交易嗎?在我看來，反恐戰爭並不是一場災難，它就像完全，你知道，基本上點燃了我們的公民自由。
你知道，我認為納伊布所做的是，是，是，沒有什麼不同，可能對很多薩爾瓦多來說，就像更糟一樣。我知道我們會介入，但在這些例外狀態下，成千上萬的人未經任何審判就被逮捕，沒有法律辯護，未成年人被視為成年人。
這種監視狀態記者和活動家可以像非常昂貴的軟件 Pegasus 一樣快速通過這些新法律，這些外國代理人法，如果通過的話，這些法律如果通過的話，實際上會沒收 40% 的外國收入給非政府組織，並凍結他們的銀行賬戶。如果，如果他不喜歡你正在做的事情。
當 C 第一次爆發時，他把人們安置在這些收容中心裡，人們因為只戴口罩和成千上萬的人而被捕你知道，因為公共衛生問題而入獄。然後事實上他，有些最高法院的法官就像，不，我們不喜歡那樣。
然後他喜歡擺脫他們，然後他準備，你知道，基本上終身競選，你知道，他想當終身總統。所以，你知道，我認為 que 有辦法以正確的方式演奏。而他沒有那樣做。我的意思是，我的，你知道的，作為開幕式的結束語，我只想說我，我認為他本可以將比特幣運動帶到薩爾瓦多。
它沒有t 必須是法定貨幣。它絕對不需要 Chivo 應用程序。他本可以取消它的資本收益並以和平的方式推廣它。然後他本可以走下舞台而不是。準備再次競選並違反憲法。他本可以像比特幣浣熊一樣漫遊世界 48 年，然後可能再跑一次，根據他所在國家的法律，他不想那樣做。
對他來說，這與比特幣無關。這是關於權力和控制的。
[00:08:17] 問:所以我想先從他的一些行為開始，亞歷克斯，你已經列出了他的一些事情，例如，你知道，取消最高法院成員追隨不一定同意他的企業或個人。我們已經看到很多關於他對犯罪立場強硬的報導。如果你，如果我可以從我們那裡借點東西，我們已經看到了一些關於犯罪率下降，他關押了多少幫派成員以及一些不同意的記者的報導和他一起。
您好，關於其中一些行動和報告出來的內容是什麼，您對此有何感受以及您的感受。我不想說理由，但你如何吸收這些信息?而我，我會有點像離開，留下一點尾端，讓你完成。
[00:09:07] 傑米·加西亞:嗯，我先說我承認，你知道，亞歷克斯所說的一些事情，我認為我們同意第一個
我認為我們可能會有點不同意的地方是對一些他習慣的措辭的修飾，實際上是描述一些非常複雜的薩爾瓦多發生的事件，你知道，主要是他的反對，變成了談話要點。
對。我認為薩爾瓦多很多人不知道的一件事是。絕大多數媒體實際上是控制的。如果我們要談論，你知道的，比特幣術語，它集中在統治精英之中，正如亞歷克在他的書中所說的根深蒂固的統治精英。
他們使用它作為一種機制影響公眾輿論，尤其是當他們看到自己的利益、財產和業務等受到威脅時。所以發生的事情是，當他們是控制敘事的人時，尤其是對國際觀眾來說，這就是我們所聽到的，我們被簡化為，對於這些你知道的，令人震驚的談話要點，當然，你知道，獨裁者的綽號等現實是，對於生活在該國的大多數薩爾瓦多人來說，他們所經歷的是不安全感的急劇減少。
勒索已大大減少。人們可以出去享受這個國家，這是一個美麗的國家等等。所以我認為，你知道，我們必須小心，因為不是全部，不是，不是整個故事都被講述了。亞歷克斯指出，一長串的事情。 ，你知道，我很難解決所有這些問題，但是，你知道，我可以只解決一個問題，這就像很多這些點正在推進。
通過傳統媒體，但是該國的傳統報紙，傳統頻道，要么都是外國資助的，沒有實際的本地訂閱，因此根本不獨立，正如他們聲稱的那樣，您知道，這是使用大量這些談話要點的來源之一。他們的座右銘是不舒服。
新聞。想想看。這是什麼委婉說法?我的意思是，它基本上是一個小報，所以當我們聽到這些時，我們必須非常懷疑。來自薩爾瓦多擁有這些媒介的根深蒂固的精英再次出現。正確的。我們必須到那裡去聽現場的人，看看他們在說什麼。
他們說的是情況會更好。即使你看民意調查，你知道，關於安全的民意調查，你今天感覺如何?不是關於闕，而只是，你今天對你的人身安全有什麼看法?它比以前好多了。因此，該國的安全和保障有了切實的改善，這是必不可少的。
如果 Sal 要吸引像我和我的家人和其他人這樣的僑民，以及遊客、比特幣人和人們誰想在這個國家投資。
[00:12:37] 問:你好，你能不能不在這裡上一堂完整的歷史課，但我們能快速了解一下內戰嗎?從八十年代開始在薩爾瓦多，以及這如何導致兩黨制度，不知何故，在某種程度上參與其中，你是否同意他提出的方式對我有幫助，我認為拆除這個兩方系統並引入了一個合法的第三方。
你能簡單介紹一下嗎?
[00:13:14] 傑米·加西亞:是的，當然。我首先要說的是，你知道，薩爾瓦多從來沒有真正自由過，即使從前哥倫比亞時代開始，馬卡人，現在它說，你知道，人們一直統治著瑪雅特蘭和該地區西班牙人，然後統治著所有土著人民。
然後是克里奧爾人西班牙後裔，但在當地出生的統治階級，然後是 19 世紀初的軍事獨裁統治，然後是內戰從來沒有真正自由過。內戰真的開始了，因為再次，只是貧窮的錢。對資源的控制，統治階級，你知道，它通常被稱為。
眾所周知的 14 個家族，你知道，還有更多，但是你知道，14 個控制著特別是當時的一切，在 19 世紀中期，數百種咖啡的生產和生產金粒咖啡的土地想要保留他們想要控制的東西，控制國家的所有方面，以確保他們的投資。
這導致了該國某某地區的數千名原住民的大規模謀殺。這基本上創造了一場運動，一場大猩猩運動，一場左翼運動，他們說，看，你知道，就像普通的薩爾瓦多人一樣，只想能夠和平自由地生活，並有能力過有尊嚴的生活。
而且，你知道，當時基本上是有一塊土地，他們可以自己生產食物。本質上，我的意思是，沒有太多細節導致現在反對政府的運動，當時的政府是一個獨裁政權。而且，而且，但是美國支持那個獨裁，殘暴的獨裁，而且，他們，他們一直都支持他們。
到1980年進入19 82、83，當憲法，現行憲法被安裝。然後從那時起，有幾個聚會。那個，當時主要的是基民黨，但後來真的變成了現在，這是一個右翼政黨，他們控制著。
政府和國家30年， 1992年蘇聯解體，左翼大猩猩沒有更多資金，也沒有辦法通過武裝衝突擺脫困境，當時由左翼大猩猩控制的政府簽署了所謂的和平協議，是一個名為 FMLN 的組織，代表解放。
Front 是我之前談到的土著大屠殺的領導人之一。和。於是他們為了他的榮譽設立了那個派對。還有Amal是一個左翼組織的聯合體，他們簽署了這個和平交易，基本上是說他們將放棄武裝鬥爭。
他們將成為官方政黨，他們將對憲法進行一些修改允許這樣做。然後就是這樣。然後從那一刻起，他們一直在淹沒那兩個政黨，你知道，不像，你知道，就像在安娜有一段時間，然後是 FMN，但人們看到的是麻袋和腐敗和，以及所有負面的事情，你知道，一個政黨承諾通過和平協議解決，然後下一個政黨，FML N 繼續，犯下類似的錯誤，人口變得更加貧困，不安全感在94 克林頓政府將許多薩爾瓦多人從美國驅逐出境，利用幫派暴力。
你只要想想，在一場完美的風暴中，你知道，沒有工作，因為基本上是以前的工作推動經濟的是戰爭，你要么在軍隊中工作，要么在大猩猩運動和重建中僱傭戰爭，就像打仗一樣。那麼現在你什麼都沒有，沒有風險建設工作，所有的重建資金都進入你。
腐敗和挪用公款等等。然後所有這些年輕人從美國一直到薩爾瓦多，那裡的經濟正處於混亂狀態。所以一場完美的風暴，沒有得到解決。而且，你知道，這讓有不同想法的人，不僅像 que，還有許多其他想法相似的人一開始在傳統政黨中當選。
但是當他們看到這和他們在創建新運動之前看到的一樣腐敗，對吧?闕被趕出他的聚會。他組建了一個新政黨，你知道，要求薩爾瓦多人支持他，建立一個平台並說，這就是我當選的。如果，如果當選，這就是我要執行的。
它叫LAN，這是薩爾瓦多的原名。而且它是在線的。如果你谷歌它，它是在線的。發生的一切，包括亞歷克斯所說的法官的解讀，都在那裡。沒有什麼是臨時的，或者，你知道，只是動態的政策。它是，它從一開始就存在。
這個計劃是在所有薩爾瓦多人的參與下制定的，包括散居國外的人。
[00:19:09] 問:謝謝。嗨，Alex 可能會離開，你知道，hi may 分享了什麼。在讓你們兩個加入之前，我想強調一下我們之前分享的幾件事。因此，當 BHA 競選他的第一個公職時，他是為市政當局競選的，嗨，請原諒我糟糕的西班牙語發音，Nevo Kalan
[00:19:33] Jamie Garcia:LAN。
是的，實際上現在它甚至不是一個西班牙語單詞現在是什麼詞? Novo 是一個新的 Klan。所以
[00:19:41] 問:謝謝。因此，在他的第一次市長競選中，他在 2012 年贏得了這個市長席位。他競選的一部分是承諾對犯罪採取強硬態度。據悉，這個轄區在他任期結束時每年發生12起兇殺案，作為市長，三年後，總共發生了3起兇殺案。
顯然報導中，可能存在疑問那方面。那裡，那裡，好的。他已經在這篇報導中提出了我們已經在腦海中思考的問題。與他作為薩爾瓦多市長的任期相同，對犯罪採取強硬態度，希望對幫派暴力更加嚴格。
再一次，他的競選承諾與他的競選承諾類似。總統職位。我們已經看到了這一點。無論我們認為他的行為有多激進，我們都看到他堅持到底。我問你的問題是，如果他兌現了這一承諾並兌現了對選民的承諾，他是否按照他們的要求行事並這樣做?
[00:20:42] BM Pro Commercial:嘿伙計們，這是來自比特幣雜誌直播的 Q
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[00:23:44] Alex Gladstein:那是給我的。因為，是的。
[00:23:51] P:好的。不，這是給
[00:23:52] Alex Gladstein:你，Alex。是的。是的。好吧，我的意思是，我可能顯然是問錯人了。我有偏見。我是一名公民自由活動家。我認為剝奪民眾的公民自由是不可接受的。沒有，沒有條件，你知道，自由或死亡，你知道，這就是我的哲學。
我認為將權力集中在軍事國家手中是不好的，無一例外。談到薩爾瓦多的具體情況，我的意思是，在花束掌權之前，幫派暴力顯然已經減少。顯然，當他在地方和聯邦各級掌權時，它下降了很多。
我，我，我不知道，你知道，什麼，你想歸因於什麼到那個。很明顯，很多事情是他就是他，你。在沒有正當程序的情況下監禁大量人時非常激進。這在任何想製造麻煩的人中間製造了一種恐懼狀態。
這就是他們在中國所做的事情。當然。我認為部分原因是他與幫派合作。所以，我，我不一定反對這一點，但應該說有據可查，他們甚至稱他為蝙蝠俠。就像他們在所有私人通訊中都喜歡對他說的話一樣。
所以，你知道，如果你只關心兇殺率，那就是你關心的問題嗎?那麼是的，你應該，那麼，那麼我希望你會，你會對一個極權主義的警察國家非常冷靜，並且，你會放棄任何東西來到達那裡，但這不是我的觀點。而且我不認為這是很多比特幣人的觀點。
我不認為這是很多比特幣人的觀點。我認為他們更喜歡較小的州。我認為他們更喜歡較少的異常狀態。而且，只是在這裡提供一些細節，請仔細考慮一下，並將其與加拿大的情況進行比較，也許，也許，甚至在我們看到民主衰落的地方，也可以說那裡也是。
當然在美國，尤其是在 9 月 11 日之後，但讓我們只考慮幾件事情。所以在這種例外狀態下，被拘留者，就像你被從街上撿起來一樣，你沒有得到法律辯護。沒有類似的權利。團體的人以兩人以上的團體聚集的權利被暫停了。
因此，如果沒有這個可能的原因，你甚至不能在街上聚集三四個人被捕，未成年人受審，成年人的事情對我來說簡直是瘋了。你知道，我認為事實上新聞媒體甚至被禁止報導這一事實，你可能會被判入獄 10 年，在薩爾瓦多的例外狀態下，你可能會因為寫了一些東西而被判入獄 10 年這可能會讓公眾感到恐慌。
對。再一次，只是為了重申，超過三個，你知道，超過 30 名記者和活動家。誰，誰是政府最大的問題，你知道，他們的手機感染了 Pegasus 間諜軟件。因此，他們受到密切監視。你知道，你知道的所有這一切，結合數字，絕對數字，你知道，超過 50,000 人在這場戰爭中被捕，你知道，戰爭戰爭，幫派戰爭。
這甚至超過了我們在 COVID 戰爭中被捕的 30,000 人左右。正確的。所以你有這個堅強的人，我不知道下一場戰爭將是什麼 對 COVID 的戰爭 對幫派的戰爭。天知道接下來會發生什麼。他們傾向於，他們傾向於將事物置於一場非常可怕的戰爭中，就像一種，你知道的，語言框架，這就是他們，他們基本上喜歡做的事情，你知道，試圖指責任何反對他們的人軟弱或。
你知道，這是軟弱的，這也是他們在美國所做的。我的意思是，尤其是在地方層面，我知道傾聽的人必須知道這一點。你有這些自以為是的警察局長和州長，還有州代表。而且，他們想要，如果你，如果你捍衛公民自由並說，好吧，也許我們不應該逮捕所有人，他們會說，哦，你對犯罪態度軟弱。
這就像在政府中的經典之作。我只是認為這太過分而且很糟糕。我也想進入COVID的東西。就像我想像的那樣，大多數比特幣人對政府對 COVID 病毒的公共衛生問題反應過度持相對懷疑的態度。我的意思是，Buki 是什麼，簡直是瘋了。
我的意思是，他有數十人，他有超過 10 人，超過 10 萬人被拘留，你知道，再次完全像沒有這不符合憲法。最高法院大法官又來了，指出這一點的人後來被解雇了。我的意思是他有人在類似的收容中心裡。當然這已經完全衝進馬桶了，大家都忘記了，假裝沒發生，但那是兩年半以前的事了。
不是很久以前的事了。同一個人，一點都沒變。我還想簡單談談 Chivo 錢包。所以再一次，就像有一條路可以讓亞歷克斯這樣做
[00:28:26] 傑米加西亞:哦，繼續。
[00:28:26] 問:很好。我們將到達 Chivo 錢包。我想，我想解開它的COVID。是的，去，去吧。所以嗨，May Alex 提出來了，我們已經看到某些國家採取了措施，甚至某些州對 COVID 採取了非常激進的立場。
我們看到其他國家採取的措施較少你知道，理解和看到的激進立場，我認為另一方面，事後看來是 2020 年和什麼 COVID。現在與當時的情況相比，我很好奇您是否當時在 Mo 覺得這些決定是由 que 做出的，如果它們是合理的，以及回顧一下，如果這是對被認為是在時間，全球大流行。
[00:29:12] Jamie Garcia:是的。所以，你知道，給我一個，一個，一個當時世界上一個國家的領導人，他沒有採取某種衡量標準，今天回頭看有點像反應過度，對吧。所以，你知道，我會，你知道，我會說，在很大程度上，我，我不會不同意，你知道，有回顧過去的好處，它可能，可能有辦法去做吧。
發生的事情是你，你必鬚根據國家保護公民的能力來評判這個國家。再說一次，你知道，它，我知道亞歷克斯非常關注法治，薩爾瓦多憲法規定政府和國家的主要職能是照顧薩爾瓦多人的生活。
這就是他們整個目的的由來和結束。正確的。當時，你知道，他們從世界衛生組織的醫生那裡得到建議，你知道，他們自己的醫生並不知道我們當時對 COVID 的了解。你知道，他們就是這樣反應的。主要是因為薩爾瓦多沒有像瑞典那樣的衛生基礎設施，例如，如果你看看它，你知道，當時他們受到了超級批評，但你看看瑞典，你知道，瑞典是一個現代化的國家，你知道，他們擁有基礎設施和能力，以薩爾瓦多和中美洲大部分地區所做的越來越有效的方式向他們的人口提供醫療保健。
沒錯。所以。他們也，你知道，可以獲得藥物和所有這些，所以當時的決定，你知道，據我們被告知，是因為基礎設施，薩爾瓦多的衛生基礎設施，公共衛生基礎設施 Salvador 無法處理他們當時在西班牙和意大利目睹的情況。
他們根本做不到。在我們的人群中，你知道，也就是說，我們也有一些健康危機，就糖尿病而言，就你知道的，可能會影響繼發性疾病的高風險人群而言，你知道，影響COVID 上，在人口上。所以基於此，這就是做出決定的原因。
你知道，我現在同意嗎? I think there could have been better ways to handle it, but you know, let’s not, you know, let’s not put El Salvador in a, in, in a corner and judge them alone. Let’s, let’s look at what everybody else did at the time, including the, you know, certain states in the us and Canada and Europe.
Right. So, I don’t know if Alex, if you’re familiar with mass flow’s hierarchy of needs, right. You know, Maslow hierarchy of needs, you know, at the bottom of the pyramid, are your physiological needs your safe then followed by safety, love and belonging then self-esteem. And then at the top is self-actualization feel when it comes to El Salvador, everybody’s judging El Salvador by self-actualization when they’re just starting to get their physiological and safety needs in order.
So, you know, let’s. Maybe pause about it, let’s check our financial privilege and let’s look at everything within context. I wanna just
[00:33:00] P: jump in and push back a little bit there, because I think that Alex’s point is that the extremes to which the Salvador and government went during, for example, COVID seems disproportionate given the the situation.
And I think that, you know, people are very, very, or were very, very quick to to kind of castigate China’s behavior during this period, you know? And they were, there were videos of people, them like welding building shit. Everybody was like, oh my gosh, this is, this is so intense. This is horrible. And there was a lot of fear involved tutoring that period because people didn’t know exactly what was going on and everybody was trying to figure it out.
But I think that to Alex’s point, these types of situations are. Or can be very convenient when one is trying to, you know, suppress the movement of a people and control information flow in a group of people in order to serve different ends. And so, I, I, I do think it’s, it is, it is I don’t think anyone should be trying to justify those kinds of actions within like a context of sort of like public safety.
Cuz I think that regardless, I feel like most Bitcoiners at least would argue that like, you know, we should be able to move freely and, and conduct ourselves as we, as we would like. But, but I feel like with El Salvador, because Bitcoin is involved, people tend to, I don’t wanna say turn blind eye, but use kind of kid gloves in a way that I think is, is, is interesting and counterproductive.
[00:34:24] Jamie Garcia: Well as a Bitcoin, I would tend to agree with you, but you know, as. As, as a decision maker for the entire country and health, and not really knowing if this thing is like, you know, as bad as it could be, you know, I can also understand why things were done the way that they were. I mean, you know, yeah.
Things could have been done better on that, on that, but again, we we’re, we’re two years out from that. And and let’s remember that El Salvador was one of the first country to give up all restrictions, you know? And you know, I just recently saw one of the things that. One, a tweet from a, a Bitcoin or that was leaving El Salvador from Mexico.
And it was prevented to go into the plane because you wouldn’t wear a mask. You don’t have to do that in El Salva. See when facts change, then you have to change your thinking and then you have to change your policy and that’s what’s happened.正確的? So, and, and, and that’s, that’s what shows growth is when you’re able to look at situations, say, you know what, maybe, maybe we didn’t get it right.
But here it is, we’re gonna rectify and we’re gonna make it right. Move forward. That’s you know, that’s, I think that’s more important rather than, than when we got it wrong. You know, like to my own kids, I say just like, don’t be afraid to make, make mistakes.好的。 If you think you’re, you’re doing the right thing, if you make mistake,
[00:35:47] Alex Gladstein: learn from it and move on, this is an extremely charitable description of what he did in reality.
He got tired and couldn’t really squeeze more justification for extreme measures out COVID. So he moved on to the gangs. It’s pretty clean. Actually, if you look at the chronology of it Then he was locking up tens of thousands of people, tens of thousands of people here. I mean, okay. No government, as you say, was, was innocent there and, and it certainly, it, it ranged, right.
I mean, you had China at the extreme end and you had, you know, some other countries that were quite pretty light touch on the other end. I mean, imprisoning tens of thousands of people certainly is on the extreme end. I mean, we, we, we could be very critical about like, I live in California. I mean, no one was arrested here for there.
Weren’t tens of thousands of people arrested here for not wearing a mask or, or not, not, you know, you know, adhering to some sort of protocol. I mean that there are degrees of freedom. And this was, this was extreme. Once that cooled down. He moved on to other things. And by the way, there were other PR projects there.
Like he started this, he, he claimed to build this whole new hospital. That was gonna be like the leading light of whatever. Never even got finished. It’s still under construction,
[00:36:56] Jamie Garcia: but again, no, it’s, it’s there and it actually took not done from
[00:36:59] Alex Gladstein: Costa Rica. It’s not done, it’s not done the,
[00:37:02] Jamie Garcia: the part where he actually could house extreme cases and, and actually triage, you know, the expected flow of, of sick people.
That’s all completed. And it’s actually
[00:37:14] Alex Gladstein: functional, but it’s PR device because it, it’s not anywhere close, gone to the hospital. No, I’ve gone to the hospital. Say
[00:37:23] Jamie Garcia: that. No, no, no. See,
[00:37:24] Alex Gladstein: see dude, you’re in Canada. I mean, what, what right now I am.是的。 So are you there right now? Like, no, but my
[00:37:32] Jamie Garcia: family’s there.
They have access the hospital.
[00:37:34] Alex Gladstein: Actually the hospital thing is a total PR move, but anyway, we can move on. So yeah, it just is, it just is so, if he, if he was committed to it and actually cared about it he, would’ve not like moved on to some other thing. He would’ve continued to focus on that stuff, but anyway, the point being that Bitcoin that continues to get improved.
Okay. Bitcoin should be extremely skeptical of this guy, given sure. I
[00:37:57] Jamie Garcia: invited everybody who’s down there to go
[00:37:59] Alex Gladstein: check it. No, no, no. Forget the hospital. That’s just one outta many little things he sprinkled there.好的。 We’re forgetting
[00:38:04] Jamie Garcia: the hospital now.是的。
[00:38:06] Alex Gladstein: We’re forgetting the main thing that we’re not gonna forget is the tens of thousands of people that were arrested without due process.
That’s the main thing that I’ve been talking about.正確的? What I was trying to say,
[00:38:14] Jamie Garcia: you know, Salvador alone, when every other country did that,
[00:38:18] Alex Gladstein: California. No, no. California government did not lock up tens of thousands of people without to process
[00:38:23] Jamie Garcia: ELs Salvador didn’t lock up. Yes, they did. First of all,
[00:38:27] P: yes, they did that.
That is undeniable. There were people that were jailed.
[00:38:30] Jamie Garcia: Yes. There’s more than
[00:38:31] Alex Gladstein: 30,000 people in what, what, whatever you, I mean, if you wanna sit here, say that’s a detention center, but that’s a jail. Like
[00:38:39] Jamie Garcia: there’s a difference. There’s a difference.好的。 They were, the treatment that you get in jail is, is very different than the treatment that, that you get in, in quarantine.
Look, I mean, we’re probably on the same page with a lot of
[00:38:51] Alex Gladstein: coping stuff.好的。 We can move on. The point is that’s you’re right. That chapter’s over now. He’s moved on to the gangs. So now it’s tens of thousands of people being. Arrested without due process. Again, minors being treated as adults the media being forbidden from reporting on the topic.
And this is just, this is the next thing. So what’s the next thing gonna be? I, I would say, I
[00:39:10] Jamie Garcia: don’t know
[00:39:11] P: that in particular is extremely concerning to me. There’s a lot concerning here, but when, whenever the media is prevented from reporting on a topic, that is a huge, huge red flag in my mind. And it’s, I can’t think of any rational way to justify that
[00:39:27] Alex Gladstein: as a reasonable action.
Again, I went through the, the things that I, I would credit this government for doing mm-hmm and I just don’t see why these actions are necessary. Like, if you wanna pursue a new economic model, if you want to promote Bitcoin in the country, This has nothing to do with locking up all these people. And, and in fact, I think what’s kind of noticeable and obvious that I, I realized a while ago is that he uses these like announcements to to sort of, or, or he uses PR and announcements to kind of like distract from like what’s happening.
He started doing this during COVID so he used COVID to like basically justify all these actions he had. And then later he, he, you know, right after he sacked the attorney general and, and cleaned out the Supreme court, he had the announcement in, in Miami, which, which I was there for. And by the way was, was awesome.
It was great. But I didn’t, I, I didn’t realize what had happened. I was like, kind of fooled. Like I didn’t realize what, what was happening in El Salvador. I was ignorant of what was happening on the ground. I just thought this was cool. Cause I was like a Bitcoin.正確的? I didn’t actually do my homework on that one.
Later at the end of last year, this whole Bitcoin city announcement, which obviously is a huge joke. There’s not gonna be a Bitcoin city in the way he like laid out. I mean, it’s, it’s obviously a distraction was right after they passed. They proposed a new foreign agent law again, which I described if you are a journalistic outfit or a human rights outfit in Salvador, in Sal Salvador now, and this law passes as designed by the government.
And you receive any money at all or any indirect support from like, let’s say my organization or any organization.好的。 Then you have to give 40% of those funds to the government, 40% tax. And it’s like, he basically gives license to the banking sector to freezer stuff. So, I mean, he’s consistent. And then of course the Bitcoin law, when it passed.
Then when it was implemented in September, it was right after he basically got the Supreme court to say he could rule forever or whatever. So, every time there’s like a major kind of erosion of, of the state and his checks and he dismantles checks on his power. He finds some way to distract the public from it.
He’s a very, very, very, very savvy politician. He’s very, very good at what he does. That’s why he’s extremely popular. Alex, can you
[00:41:43] Jamie Garcia: point out exactly how the law states that the, or the proposed law states that it forbids people to report on gangs?
[00:41:56] Alex Gladstein: Okay. So we’re going back to a different thing.
[00:41:57] Jamie Garcia: Yeah, no. The first thing that you started to talk about, like the thing is, it’s difficult to answer all your points when you squeeze in.
[00:42:06] Alex Gladstein: Well that’s cuz there’s so many, so many blatant violations of civil liberties in El Salvador. I mean, we don’t, we only have an hour dude.
We could be here for, I know, I know, but
[00:42:15] Jamie Garcia: can, okay. Let’s just for argument sake, 10 years in
[00:42:17] Alex Gladstein: prison for journalists, I’m reading it 10 years in prison for journalists that could panic the public. You wanna challenge
[00:42:22] Jamie Garcia: that? No, that’s not what it says, dude. Wait, did wait minute.好的。 OK, go ahead. You read it in Spanish.
Give a translation. Here’s here’s here’s the intent of the law. It’s it’s that if you are reporting or in an ethnographic investigation embedded within criminal organizations, it is your duty to report. If there is going to be people’s lives at stake, otherwise you become a, a, an accomplice to the crime.
It just bringing clarification to that because there was instances where so-called journalists were embedded with some of these criminal organizations. They knew some of the things that they were gonna do. They wrote about them and failed to report that to the organizations. There’s an ethical principle behind journalism and, and, and I state
[00:43:24] Alex Gladstein: the state.
Doesn’t get to decide that no,
[00:43:27] Jamie Garcia: when, when journalists don’t actually live up to those principles and, you know, I think maybe, maybe some states will decide to do that. I’m not saying, okay, well, I think
[00:43:37] Alex Gladstein: the audience can determine whether or not the government should providing the laws for whether or not, you know, what, how journalists should report.
But, well, it’s,
[00:43:43] Jamie Garcia: it’s more or less about whether you can be accomplished to a crime.
[00:43:48] Alex Gladstein: So wait, where, I mean, the government is literally working with the gangs.
[00:43:50] Jamie Garcia: I mean, I don’t, I’m sorry. Can you provide actual evidence that that’s happening? Tons guys is
[00:43:56] P: your source. What’s your source. I’ve lost the thread personally.
Yeah. So what is the higher level topic or the point that, that is that we’re sort of discussing? I think that Alex, you made the, what to me feels like a very reasonable point like this this, the law that, that is apparently saying that there’s basically you, you can receive to 10 years in prison for reporting on gangs.
I think there’s some nuances there Hemi that you’re going into, but
[00:44:20] Alex Gladstein: let’s just say if we don’t do it correctly per the government. Yeah, sure.
[00:44:23] Jamie Garcia: Well, you just can be an accomplice to a crime. That’s what it’s
[00:44:27] Alex Gladstein: so well, when you own the court system, Jamie, then, then to decide, dude, you
[00:44:31] Jamie Garcia: can report, you can report.
You just can’t be an accomplice to a crime without sorting
[00:44:37] Alex Gladstein: it. You know, let me, let me ask you who decides let’s move on, but, but let, let’s just say that this let’s say you go back to El Salvador tomorrow. Mm-hmm , you’re there. You have a change of heart. You change your mind after our debate here today and you become critical que okay.
So let’s say you. Contribute to an article in a news story comes out or you in, in some way you are publicly critical of him. I mean, how confident are you that that court system is gonna uphold your rights? I mean, how confident are you that this court system, if you are critical of que is gonna actually protect your stuff, or is this just a country for beque supporters now?
[00:45:13] Jamie Garcia: You know, there are several newspaper, like I said, most media, like 98% of the media and Salvador, I would say like, you know, probably the state paper, but, you know, could you believe them either, right. But other than that is all opposing B, they report daily, not one journalist is in jail. They have taken actually to put cartoon characters with such disdain.
Not only for his policies, but for him as a person actually mocking his two year old daughter and insulting her. No, one’s in jail.
[00:45:58] Alex Gladstein: Okay. You didn’t really answer my question, but no, like what I’m
[00:46:02] Jamie Garcia: saying is that the press can report freely. Nobody has gone to jail. Nobody is being prevented from reporting. This is all just embellishment who like, who, like, which of your friends are from El Salvador that are journalists supposedly are in jail right
[00:46:19] Alex Gladstein: now.
Well, that would be a pretty low bar dude. I mean, that would be horrible journalists who are in prison.
[00:46:25] Jamie Garcia: Yeah. But so there’s, there’s nobody because it’s not happening.
[00:46:30] Alex Gladstein: Okay. Well, I mean, I think that there is something called a climate of fear that governments use. I mean, a lot of people say the same thing about the United States.
You know, there’s no journalists in prison.我不知道。 I mean, you, you, you, you can judge, you can judge, you can judge whether or not that makes, that means the media climate is free or not. The point is there are laws in place that prevent people from speaking their mind and from free expression. Mm-hmm um, I, I, again, if you wanna justify, look, this is, this all comes down to this huge philosophical debate over law and order versus freedom.
And if, if you wanna take the side that, Hey, in special times, we need to restrict the rights of the people to secure the nation. Then B’s your guy. There’s no question. There’s no question.
[00:47:19] Jamie Garcia: I think you can have both
[00:47:21] Q: I wanna hop in here and present a question. Alex, to you, as someone like I come from a perspective of.
An American immigrant. I see laws, how they operate in other countries like Iran, my Homeland, as well as in this country. And I see certain benefits as well as some flaws in assuming Western systems into other countries and cultures. There’s a historical example of this. And the one I will pull on is Singapore, regardless of the approach of the prime minister and how long he held power and his approach and toughness against drug and drug users and drug dealers.
We cannot discount how far that country and that region has grown as a result from a very strict leader, imposing their own will on the country and its people we’ve heard B Kayley compare himself to. This leader from Singapore, we’ve heard him say statements like I’m the world’s coolest dictator. My question is, are we putting too much emphasis on Western values and principles into a country that quite frankly doesn’t want those principles ingrained in, in its society?
[00:48:45] Jamie Garcia: That’s a good question. I mean, you know, and, and like, again, I, I’m gonna refer back to master’s hierarchy of needs, you know, and where El Salvador is in that continuum is it’s in the safety needs. It’s trying to establish personal security, making sure that people have employment, make making sure that people have health and access to property, you know, yet a lot.
Liberal Democrats philosophy in terms of philosophy, speaking on ideologically speaking, judging El Salvador to be at that self actualization. If you are a nation who’s developed and self actualizing that at that point, if you start infringing on, you know, randomly on people’s rights, of course that’s wrong.
Salvador’s not doing that. OK. El Salvador is specifically targeting the people who are extorting the population. That’s just not less than 1% less.
[00:49:49] Alex Gladstein: One’s false. It’s less than 1%. There’s there’s no process. None of these people have there’s no, there’s no trials. They’re being put the tens of thousands of people are being arrested with no trials.
So how can you say, how can you say it’s targeted? So in the constitution
[00:50:05] Jamie Garcia: under extreme circumstances, Which
[00:50:10] Alex Gladstein: executive are conveniently three of the last four years. Like, I don’t know, like when is it not gonna be an extreme circumstances? Oh no.
[00:50:16] Jamie Garcia: The El Salvador to be Frank has been extreme circumstances since the Maka invaded, you know, the region.
Okay. So, okay. So, so, so let’s be Frank. The state of exception was used consistently throughout the civil war.正確的? In fact, it’s, it’s only recently that hasn’t been used and it’s been invo specifically to, to deal with, you know, the insecurity issue. And so when we think about that, the constitution, cuz you know, you said the rule of law, the constitution permits that is a tool and the president asks for it from the assembly, the assembly then has to get an absolute majority.
That means. Three quarters of, of a part of the assembly in order to get that, if it doesn’t meet that bar, it doesn’t, he doesn’t get that state of exception. So that, that is the due process and that is what’s happened.好的。 And it’s undisputable that, that assembly was dually elected with international observers, vetting it and qualifying as fair and free.
[00:51:34] Alex Gladstein: Okay. Well, I mean the audience can fact check that. I obviously sure. No, absolutely disagree, but no, I think, I think just to, just to go back to the previous point, I think you have a climate in El Salvador now where like, I don’t know how anyone, I know there’s a lot of Bitcoiners down there who are very pro UK who are psyched good for them.
But like, if you’re, if you’re antique. I don’t know how you could possibly be confident that a court would rule in your favor in a high profile case. I just don’t
[00:51:58] Jamie Garcia: don’t pro or anti B Kelly. You can just be Salvador. And I think that that’s what a lot of people are. Wait, wait, wait. But
[00:52:06] P: that feels like a
[00:52:07] Jamie Garcia: side step because I think, no, it’s not a side step I’m listen, I’ll change my mind about B Kelly.
If he starts to do things that, that I feel are
[00:52:17] P: in,
[00:52:18] Jamie Garcia: in, in, in a way that pressing innocent people, the people who are in jail right now, the majority are gangsters. So wait, right.
[00:52:29] P: Alex just made a statement. He said that if you, he would not, or he don’t, I’m gonna, I’m gonna for butcher this, but he said something to the effect of.
The average person should not feel comfortable or he would not feel comfortable if he was in a Harry Parel case you know, arguing or expressing negative sentiment around the president of El Salvador. And you said, I think that I would only be worried if I wasn’t expressing or if I was expressing negative sentiment around El Salvador as a country, but I think that’s still a problem, right?
Like one should be able to express one’s opinions, whether negative or positive in a high profile case or a low profile case and not have to worry about you know, whether or not you’re gonna be put into a dark
[00:53:04] Alex Gladstein: hole.正確的? Like how good is your, how good is your Bitcoin? If the government can just come and just grab you without any justification, I think that’s what Bitcoiners should consider here.
[00:53:12] Jamie Garcia: No, I mean, you, you can use any wallet you want and they’re not gonna confiscate
[00:53:16] Alex Gladstein: it from you. No, no, no. I mean, how good is Bitcoin general? If the government can just take you off the street without any sort of due process or a trial, they can just, I think we’ll agree.
[00:53:25] Jamie Garcia: That’s why we like Bitcoin,
[00:53:26] Alex Gladstein: because that can’t happen.
Okay. Well, but that, that is happening right now in El Salvador. No, it’s not. People
[00:53:33] Jamie Garcia: can have their Bitcoin in, in a,
[00:53:35] Alex Gladstein: I’m not, not, sorry. I’m not being clear. What I’m saying is let’s say you’re one of these 50,000 people who’ve been detained without any sort of due process or trial over the last few months in this state of exception.
What good is that? Person’s Bitcoin. If they’re just, they could just be jailed like that. Like Bitcoin is a great tool. I support it. The most important tool for freedom in the world, in my opinion, mm-hmm, , it’s not sufficient. Like mm-hmm and, and the fact that so many people are out here, one thing is being.
Nuanced about PKA and I’ve tried to do that. I, I, at the outset, I tried to say there are a bunch of things that are positive. I’m not here, like Steve hanky, like with some, like, you know, yeah. Personal anti Pallia agenda. I could care less. The fact is you should be nuanced and reasonable and it is unreasonable to just be like, oh, whatever, everything he’s done is like, it’s not that big of a deal.
Let’s just support him cuz he is pro Bitcoin. It is a big deal. We should be alarmed about tens of thousands of people being arrested. And we should be alarmed about like the way he goes after his critics. And we should be alarmed about the way he’s preventing justice from being served with regard to the war crimes in the eighties,
[00:54:44] Jamie Garcia: like you should be alarmed.
The us should be alarm international as a global, a global citizen, Salvador, Salvador, and should
[00:54:50] Alex Gladstein: no global citizens should be alarmed. Jamie. So like as
[00:54:54] Jamie Garcia: in a neo-colonial type of paternalistic way, we’re gonna tell no,
[00:54:59] Alex Gladstein: dude I’ve written a lot more about anti-colonialism than you have. Like I’m I’m very anticolonial thank you.
This is
[00:55:05] Jamie Garcia: why I’m I’m I’m actually I’m actually I, you
[00:55:10] Alex Gladstein: wait you’re are you not, are you not clear that he’s he’s preventing justice from happening at Elte? Like you’re not clear on that, that
[00:55:20] Jamie Garcia: have you actually have you actually read what happened at. Of course, have you actually read what happened?是的。 Cite that
[00:55:28] Alex Gladstein: book.
Well, you said you wrote my in my book, I cite that book. Of course, the judge who’s trying to get the military dictator folks who had ordered all those massacres in prison has been basically taken out and B’s preventing justice from being served. That’s the latest you know, there, and he doesn’t, he doesn’t wanna piss off the military, which I understand cuz he’s gotta have them run his brick and COVID containment centers,
[00:55:51] Jamie Garcia: centers.
So do, do you understand those do not exist? First of all, what don’t exist? They’re no COVID containers.
[00:55:58] Alex Gladstein: They no, no, no. Those were in 2020. Okay. And now they’re the, the gang, the gang centers.
[00:56:03] Jamie Garcia: Have you read the piece? The, the
[00:56:06] Alex Gladstein: peace agreement, the peace agreement between El
[00:56:10] Jamie Garcia: Salvador government and the girls.
This
[00:56:12] Alex Gladstein: is, this is not relevant. The point I’m no,
[00:56:13] Jamie Garcia: it is relevant because, because it gives amnesty to all these crooks. The same crooks that, that you dislike. I, I dislike. So
[00:56:21] Alex Gladstein: if BCA is on your side then, and he doesn’t want them to have amnesty, why is he stopping an investigation into the military role? The S
[00:56:29] Jamie Garcia: peace agreement gave amnesty to these crooks.
Okay.
[00:56:35] Alex Gladstein: A peace
[00:56:35] Jamie Garcia: agreement that he did not sign. He was in the side of the people who got
[00:56:39] Alex Gladstein: was a child. It’s not, he wasn’t
[00:56:42] Jamie Garcia: responsible.確切地。 So then why, why are you claiming that he’s responsible somehow?
[00:56:47] Alex Gladstein: He’s he is defrocking or whatever verb you want use. He’s basically removing from power judges that want to go after the military who committed these murders in collaboration with the United States government.
What, why, why is that not a problem for you?好的。 Let,
[00:57:03] Jamie Garcia: let me just ask you something. Mm-hmm if you’re, you’re gonna tie up resources to, to go after people who are either dead. No, they’re not dead gone Salvador. Some of them are old who have amnesty because of the peace agreements. Anyway,
[00:57:21] Alex Gladstein: I mean, I think it would be great to see these people behind prison and behind bars, but I guess that’s just my
[00:57:25] Jamie Garcia: personal, do you understand the concept of amnesty?
[00:57:29] Q: I think we’re, I think we’re losing the plot a little bit. Step.你好。 Hi Matt. Let’s just, let’s. We’re gonna shift. We have about 30 minutes left on the scheduled debate conversation. I don’t wanna shift now to the Bitcoin of it all specifically. We’ve highlighted the Chivo, the Chivo wallet rollout. I want to discuss that as well as I just wanted discuss the fact that bouquet has been purchasing Bitcoin.
Government funds. Seemingly has slowed down a comment we were having internally amongst ourselves is why have we not seen or heard anything of BHA announcing buying more Bitcoin, buying the dip in the way he did a year ago, six months ago. And I don’t wanna necessarily call it the failed rollout, but the delayed rollout of the volcano bonds to Alex’s point earlier as well, this promise of a Bitcoin city, a lot of promises around Bitcoin and a lot of moves made by Quele.
Alex, I will start with you to just sort of take both sides of what are the things at Al’s done with Bitcoin that you will applaud’em for as well as some of the things you are more critical.
[00:58:42] Alex Gladstein: Yeah. I mean, I thought that the volcano bond thing was cool. I think it’s a cool idea. I think he’s having trouble executing it.
I think there’s probably forces beyond his control that are preventing from him, from executing on that macro environment is not great. I think mining is great, really happy to see hopefully the Salvador government and society take advantage of the geothermal power that’s been sort of, you know, not used.
And in general, like choosing Bitcoin as a, as a national currencies is great. I think my, my issues have a lot less to do with Bitcoin and a lot more to do with everything else that PKA does. If I were to nitpick I think the Chivo wallet is, was a misallocation of resources and effort. I know that hindsight’s 2020, but generally speaking, I think just sort of just saying, Hey, you don’t have to pick capital gains on Bitcoin when you live.
Would’ve been sufficient. I think launching this like national campaign to, to launch a national wallet is, is was a waste of resources at best and, and had a lot of mal intent at worst because it signaled that he wanted people to use Bitcoin inside a Chibo, which is obviously, as we all know, not Bitcoin, it’s somebody else’s Bitcoin, it’s his Bitcoin.
He wanted people to use that system, which of course could be frozen and surveil just like the currency. So I’ve always said, you know, I’ve taught a bunch of Salvador how to use other wallets. And I know, I know he has to and everything great. But like I would nitpick about Chivo. I think Chivo the wrong way for governments to, to approach Bitcoin.
But in general, I’m not that I’m not that critical of how he’s approached Bitcoin.是的。 The price has gone down. I think it’s smart for the solvent or government to buy Bitcoin. I, I, I don’t have a lot of issues in this area. My issues are, are much more on the. Civil liberties front, but you know, I’ll let, I’ll let I’ll let you guys fill in.
[01:00:32] Q: Hi, may I present the same question to you just about specifically the Bitcoin rollout? What are your feelings, thoughts, both things he’s done successfully and things you are critical of BHAs Bitcoin
[01:00:42] Jamie Garcia: rollout. Yeah, no, I think, I think that Alex and I probably find a lot of common ground on this, you know, for me as a Bitcoin you know, I think that having your own Bitcoin in your, in, in a sovereign way in your, you know, cool storage is, is the way to go.
You know, again, I’m gonna point to mass those hierarchy of needs, you know, that’s when you’re at the self, self actualization stage for most selfs that’s. Where they are because it’s really hand to mouth. They, whatever they, they earn, they have to spend El Salva, there’s a high propensity to spend kind country Bitcoin parlance it’s time preference for sure.
But we have to have a low time preference in, in kind the, the benefits of, of the country adopting it. I’m not a huge fan of for sure. But as the law was designed, she was a necessity because the government had to provide the means for every citizen in the country to accept. Payment and, and automatically get it converted again.
That’s because I think that in some ways you, the government realized that a, of people not. So that conversion feature was a necessity. And so that’s what, that’s the primary reason why it, it, it was created right? The, the, the other part is that, you know, it’s because it had to facilitate merchants to be able to accept Bitcoin and again, convert it to us D and so, you know, it, and I think that the rollout it was quick maybe some more time would’ve been needed to get all the bugs out, which I think, you know, and I, I agree.
Would’ve probably been better received. But I think like, I, I think about you know, two terminologies in it waterfall and agile, right? I think this was an agile project where they rolled it out. They knew there was gonna be bugs. And then they would iterate based on user input as they went along.
And I think that since I’ve written a couple of articles documenting that it has gotten better. And but I think that, you know, because of the missteps and, and the rollout you know, people are. A little bit disenchanted. One of the things that I like about the law though, is that it provides the ability for the private sector to, to provide these services of auto conversion.
And I has a really job and beta that they have, have been lucky enough to test it. And it’s, it’s amazing. They use a synthetic dollar, which takes that volatility out. And so, but that’s one of the main reasons, the other, the other main reason why, and, and I, I would say, you know, I would disagree with Alex on this point was like miss allocation of money or poorly spent money.
It’s like, you know, El Salvador spends money in buy. Dollars from the federal reserves. It has service that it has to, you know, maintain that.正確的。 So, you know, at some point, if it was gonna make Bitcoin legal tender in the country, it had to make a similar investment.正確的。 And and I think that it, you know, there’s gonna be some people who are always gonna disagree and they’re always gonna think that that was a MIS of money, but at the same time, you know, that’s they actually, escrow provides that’s
[01:04:23] Q: of the two of you where I think we’ve fully established. That what we all agree on is Buka and El Salvador’s attempt to adopt Bitcoin is the right step. Some of his other actions are, I think, where we’re all. all four of us are in disagreement. And we’re just gonna go around the full circle cuz P and I have also somehow interjected and, and shared our opinions on this matter as well.
There’s no right or wrong answer, but I would like everyone to share how or why they are justifying or condemning what BKA has done outside of Bitcoin and how that could have an impact, either positive or negative on the greater adoption of Bitcoin. I will start because I threw a lot of words and probably made that question and statement a lot more complicated than it should I myself feel as though, while bouquet has taken some aggressive actions in this manner, while he has done things that by standards of United States law, we would condemn and he would be viewed as.
Close to, I would say almost a, a gang leader in which he condemns himself. I, however, do not feel as though these laws should be replicated and should be held accountable in every jurisdiction. I do think overall his steps towards Bitcoin are the right steps. I do question whether or not he actually understands Bitcoin and sees the grand potential of what Bitcoin can do.
I’ve always been long skeptical of politicians and he still falls into the camp of people that I quite frankly just think is saying Bitcoin, for the sake of garnering more eyeballs and attention for himself and his country he has done so quite successfully. If I may add, as we have pointed out, the tourism in El Salvador has spiked over the last two years to in large part to Bitcoiners themself, making this almost pilgrimage down south south of where I live at least.
My one caveat with this will always be he may be our, a hero today in the eyes of some and a villain in the eyes of others. But it’s on history to look back and judge this. Ultimately I think we can, we will just have to wait and allow a few more things to play out. My fear quite honestly, is countries like Russia countries like Iran leaders, like president bouquet, or even North Korea, those types of political leaders as viewed as by Western countries, G seven countries today.
If those are the countries that first adopt Bitcoin, the rest of the world will be much slower at adopting Bitcoin. But ultimately everyone I do believe will get there. I do think this is a speed bump. If we, if you will, in the global adoption of Bitcoin.
Hi, I present it to you next, Alex, and then P you will be the last one to share your opinion. So don’t fuck it up. P
[01:07:25] Jamie Garcia: sure thing. I mean, okay. So, you know, as a self owner, I do have my perspective and, and, and I, I do believe that Bitcoin, the right way to go. I have to keep presenting this to, you know, Bitcoin is all all over the world is that Bitcoin was not originally designed for Salvadorians, even with the Bitcoin law.
You know, the very first part of it is to attract investment into the country. You know, a country that exports very little that you know, has very little value add. We have beautiful people beautiful. Country for tourism that we wanna share with the world. And, and it’s a way to, you know, invite everybody in and kickstart the economy.
But it’s also a way to invest in the rising monetary system, as opposed to a declining one. El Salvador has been a dollarized country for several years now. And at a time when the dollar is in decline, you, it makes sense to make this just purely as a game theory mode. And I, that this is where I disagree with you a little bit Q where I believe understands more than he lets on.
He understands the game theory. He was tweeting about adopting Bitcoin back in 2017 when he was being blocked by the people that Alex actually empathize with now, from running for the presidency. And so. You know, I think that what we have to understand also is that there, there is a process. There’s a process by which as more people come into the country, introduce Bitcoin.
People will begin to accept it beyond Sante, you know, and I would suggest this to Bitcoiners and people in general that are going there.是的。 Go and visit Chivera. He’s awesome. And Mike and everybody, the whole crew down there, but take some time to go to other places around the country, to the mountains, to, to lake GU and try to orange people there.
Because as people see that, you know, the currency that you wanna use is Bitcoin. They will begin to become more open and accepting it and they will see right now we’re in a bear market. Nobody wants it, but they will see that as we transit. Some of what you, some of the tips that you gave them, or some of the things that you bought from them will continue to rise and right.
And so I do have my, my belief, my, or my beliefs in my biases around the country. I think that one of the things that I would highlight is that, and I, I would never wish upon none of you
[01:10:11] Q: or Alex
[01:10:13] Jamie Garcia: is to know the fear of what it was like during the height of gang extortion, to get off the bus
[01:10:23] Q: and walk two
[01:10:23] Jamie Garcia: blocks from the bus, stop to your house at 9:00 PM at night, because you didn’t know if you were gonna make it alive.
That is a paralyzing feeling. And to experience it every day, the amount of cortisol that gets injected into your veins, not knowing if you’re gonna see your, your daughter, your sister, your mom and dad. I don’t wish that upon anybody. And that feeling is gone right now for most people. You know, if we go by the 80 20 rule, you know, and, and I know that a lot of libertarians will probably reject Jeremy Bentham’s views on utilitarianism, but the greatest goods for the, for, for the greatest amount of people, you know, that probably doesn’t jive well, but to get to that libertarian view, you have to sort of go through these steps where you have to do what’s best for most of the population, you know, at the, at the risk.
Of putting some of these folks that are really bad in jail. Now there’s still obvious Corpus right now. It’s just instead of 72 hours, it’s 15 days, you know? And so it, you know, some of the assertions that a Alex makes that people are jailed, indefinitely are, are wrong, but I would say that, you know, SA Salvadorians and, and they approve 90% notable killer, but on the measures that have been enacted to clean up and to offer them safety.
But otherwise I think that you know, I think Bitcoin’s the way, and we’ll see where it ends up. Let’s.
[01:12:22] Q: Thank you. Hi Alex.
[01:12:24] Alex Gladstein: Yeah. I mean, look, no one here’s arguing that Bitcoin’s not the way, obviously Bitcoin’s the way. I just think that we’re gonna go through a period of pretty intense global adoption of Bitcoin over the coming decade. All in my view, all governments and corporations are eventually gonna integrate or adopt it in some way.
It doesn’t mean we have to support those governments. A lot of them are gonna do it begrudgingly. A lot of them are gonna do it. You know, in a, in a way that’s sort of, opportunistic I think you can look at a lot of, and I’m, I’m not saying that El Salvador is as repressive as these states.
It’s it’s, it’s not, we should be very clear about that, but generally speaking throughout history, you’ve had. Very repressive states adopt good measures. You’ve had, for example, the Chinese communist party, you know, introduce more private property. Like that was great, but we didn’t like cheer the CCP, right?
The Cuban government introduced internet to the island 2017. The very, very good. It doesn’t mean I’m gonna go cheer for the Cuban government. The Saudi Arabian government introduced the right for women to drive. Very good. Doesn’t mean I’m gonna go cheer for them. I, I, I think we can observe what’s happening in El Salvador and, and, and visit and you should visit Elante is an incredible place without needing to cheer for the government.
I just don’t understand you have this all these Bitcoiners who are like cheering for the government to me, you know, makes very little sense. So again, we don’t disagree very much about Bitcoin here. It was of course the right choice. There’s deserve credit for that. It’s just about everything else he’s doing and, you know, I think what’s, what’s.
What’s been clear, is that what the people who are supporting bouquet try to do is they try to dismiss facts as not real or as false. So I’ll just remind the audience of a couple things that are, you know, incontrovertible like these things did happen.阿門。 Again, remember this government leader that you are, you know, some of you are currently simp sipping for to, to put it lightly, especially in the chat here.
It’s amazing. He detained tens of thousands of people after the COVID breakout in 2020 with, without any sort of due process currently in a war against gangs. He has issued a state of exception and there are more than 50,000, 50,000 people who’ve been detained without any sort of due process.
These are actual facts that are not fake. This is not fake news. This is real. More than 30 journalists and activists who are the most high profile ones had their phones sped on with Pegasus software. That’s real, that’s a fact, and there’s a proposed law that could come into effect soon that basically treats any, any organization in El Salvador that receives any sort of foreign support as a foreign agent, and then any, any incoming income from abroad gets taxed to the tune of 40%.
Another fact. And then finally, the biggest fact to me, the, the, the really the most jarring thing that changed my mind on all this cuz when I first reported this, I was kind of like, well, we’ll see what happens when it comes to his next term. That’s really what it’s gonna be all about. Is he, is he gonna do Ugo Chavez and, and try to change the change, the paradigm so he can rule for longer that that was the real key here and I expected it to happen in the next few years.
I did not expect it to happen in the near future. The fact that he did it last summer was just so brazen and aggressive. But yeah, I mean, he really got down right to business and he sacked the attorney general sacked, the Supreme court justices that he didn’t like, and he got them to go over a constitutional ban to allow him to run again.
And that’s really all you need to know about this guy. So I think we should focus on Bitcoin and on separating money from state and on providing Salvador the tools to use Bitcoin in a non-custodial manner. And we should stop cheering on this guy who is as sad to see has, has indoctrinated or, or, you know, basically like, one over, so many people in the Bitcoin community that really shouldn’t be cheering for governments.
But anyway ha thanks for having me.
[01:16:29] P: Yeah, I think I can, I I’ll jump in here and I think I’m a huge fan of El Salvador. I’m a huge fan of everything that you know, that is going on there in terms of the. Adoption of Bitcoin, but I, I, I will say I am surprised at how willing Bitcoiners are in general to put people on pedestals.
And I think that I definitely don’t have as negative of a view as I think Alex does, but I think that we need to be able to have these conversations critically about the policies and the actions that anyone is taking.正確的? The same things that we castigate the United States government for doing, I feel like somehow when there is a, a person involved who is very pro Bitcoin and positive for Bitcoin, The the larger Bitcoin community has a tendency to kind of give them a pass, especially when it’s, you know, complicated with you know, the fact that there are large governmental or sort of extra governmental organizations like the, we like the IMF actively attempting to sabotage those government’s efforts.
So it be, it does become a very complicated issue, but I think we really need to hold ourselves as Bitcoiners and as a Bitcoin community accountable for, for being able to critically evaluate all aspects of every situation and, and really be able to to have those kinds of these kinds of critical discussions without it being about like, are you pro Bitcoin or anti Bitcoin, cuz it’s not about that.
It it’s about being able to view the world as it really is and be realistic and have these meaningfu l conversations because it’s the only way that we can learn as Bitcoiners is the only way that we can is by engaging in these sometimes heated conversations.所以。 That is my thought, Kim.
[01:18:16] Q: Yeah, I wanna, I wanna echo what P said.
Just the last part. Nothing else P ever says is valid anyways. Like the beautiful thing about Bitcoin as we continue to adopt and grow is there are gonna be a multitude of ideas and perspectives that come into place. And if we are not willing to have difficult conversations and disagree on certain facts, we’re, we’re not gonna grow.
We will just stagnate. And Bitcoin will, in my opinion, it will fail if we don’t accept the fact that if we do have global adoption of what, what’s the global population now, 8 billion people. I lose track every day, honestly, but that’s 8 billion different ideas. And I think we’re naive to think that everyone is gonna believe in Bitcoin the same way that we individually believe in it.
And so I appreciate both of you sharing your time and perspective today because these conversations are important. We don’t have to leave agreeing on things we can leave disagreeing. And frankly, I think we’re about to leave this conversation disagreeing on a lot more things than we walked in here agreeing on, but I do think it is important because you, we need to have these conversations.
I think the thing, the reason why I was inspired to reach out to each of you to ask you to join and have this conversation is because I, myself in hearing the story that I shared of Singapore, it rang so true to what I’m seeing in El Salvador. But of course there are so many more details in the story of Singapore’s growth, as well as what we’re bearing witness to in El Salvador that don’t get reported on fairly or justly and maybe get over exaggerated or just.
Misinformation is shared as a result in byproduct. What the truth is of what’s going on in El Salvador. I doubt any of the four of us know the whole entire truth, but maybe we could come up with some pieces of it. And from that can make judgements on our own. If this conversation was a conversation you enjoyed, or even just felt strongly and D disagreement with anything, myself, Jamie, Alex, or P has ever said I urge you to take that feeling and go down a rabbit hole, learn more DM me.
I don’t care. My DMS get blown up with so many scammers. I could use a DM or two from a real person. Tell me what you find that maybe I, I would be surprised I would disagree with or not. Cuz that is the point of this. That’s how we’re gonna hold this next iteration of politicians accountable is by having these hard conversations and then calling to question their actions.
Hi, Matt, I give you and then Alex final word each. And again, I really do thank you both for your time and your perspective in this discussion today.
[01:20:47] Jamie Garcia: Yeah, I just, you know, one of the things that we didn’t really actually get to dive deeply into is like how everything has been done by the rural law, by it democratically elected president and the demo critically elected Assembly.
I think that you know, I actually spent was, was hoping to get into that and spent some time last night talking to one of the authors of the Salvadorian constitution, which he, he had, its actually said that that reelection is possible that the judges were replaced according to, to the rule of law, according to, in, in the spirit of the, of the constitution.
And no rules were violated, of course, you know, and the funny thing is that, you know, this was done with their set of rules and, and and I think that that’s what stinks for a lot of them more, but you know, we’ll leave that for, for another time because I would love to, to really dive into that.
But what I really wanna say is that thanks, Alex. I think, you know, We probably have a lot more in common than, than, than we do. And, and contrast, you know, I myself left El Salvador because my human rights and my, my father’s human rights he paid a dear price were violated. So human rights are extremely important to me.
And so, but I understand the complexity of of the world. And and, and I understand that the dire situation that most Salvadorians found themselves because of the so I wanna thank you for having this conversation as well. And thank P Q for facilitating that. And the last thing that I wanna maybe say is is, or ask Alex is if you, if you participate in a stack chain yet,
[01:22:23] Alex Gladstein: no.
Wanna answer.
[01:22:35] Q: As far as participation in stack chain. I have not.
[01:22:40] P: I’ve not nor no, no. Nor
[01:22:43] Alex Gladstein: is Alex. Haven’t had the pleasure.對不起。
[01:22:46] P: No, no. It’s, it’s a random meme that people are trying to encouraging people to stack stats, even in the bear market. That’s basically what
[01:22:51] Alex Gladstein: it’s. Oh, well then.當然。是的。 That’s a good idea.
Cool.是的。 Well, thanks guys. This has been a good conversation. I like what P said a lot. I, I, you know, again, I think we need to think adversarially and I’m surprised to see Bitcoiners put so many people on, on pedestals. I think we should try and help the Quinn adoption in El Salvador as much as we can.
And just, just, you know, be skeptical of what you hear out there.是的。 I mean the dominant narrative. And Bitcoin land is that, is that bouquet is this sort of like awesome, cool hip hero guy. It’s a lot more complicated than that. And at the end of the day, Bitcoin is very important, but it, it’s obviously only one aspect of life and it takes a lot of time to work.
I mean, we’re, we’re going through a very volatile process, obviously where Bitcoin has lost a lot of value in the last year. You know, this thing’s gonna take decades to really start to change the world and it’s begun its journey, but it’s gonna be a long, long time. And in the meantime, people have to deal with the reality of today.
And I’m just not convinced the way that bouquet is running his policy is, is, is, is the best way to go about doing things. But I think what, what, what he may said is is a fair, it’s a fair position to hold that, you know, we need to prioritize, you know, sort of law and order Over freedom. I just disagree.
So I guess we’ll see, we’ll see where that we’ll see where that goes. But yeah, I would encourage everyone to continue to support Salvadorians support Bitcoin adoption there and, and continue to stack. And we’ll see you around.
[01:24:31] Q: Thank you both. Thank you to our audience on all platforms for tuning in, please, please, please.
If you are not yet subscribed to our channel smash, the subscribe button down below, over there on YouTube or up there on rumble. That’s a wrap guys that is our episode for today. Tomorrow we will be back with another exclusive special report with a special guest joining us. Tickets for Bitcoin Amsterdam are on sale.
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