O presidente de El Salvador está agindo como um autoritário?

Esta é uma transcrição completa de um recente debate no Twitter Spaces entre Alex Gladstein e Jaime Garcia sobre se o presidente de El Salvador está ou não decretando políticas autoritárias.

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Transcrição

[00:00:05 ] P: Estou muito animado para apresentar nossos convidados hoje. Começaremos com hi may Garcia, que é um imigrante salvadorenho que mora no Canadá e agora escreveu artigos extensos sobre a presidência em andamento, bem como o lançamento do Bitcoin.

[00:00:32] Jamie Garcia: Eu trabalho para uma companhia de seguros aqui no Canadá, apenas um plebeu regular. Você sabe, apenas um Joe normal ganhando dinheiro e pagando minhas contas e economizando alguns sats se sobrar alguma coisa no final do mês.

[00:00:48] P: Do outro lado da Na conversa, nos juntamos ao diretor de estratégia da HRF, que escreveu inúmeros ensaios sobre como o Bitcoin está ajudando as pessoas hoje. No momento, mesmo que não esteja necessariamente na vanguarda de como você pode usá-lo, bem como o autor de leitura obrigatória para todos no espaço Bitcoin, verifique seu privilégio financeiro.

[00:01:14] Jamie Garcia: Obrigado pelo convite.

[00:01:16] P: Eu queria começar dando a cada um a oportunidade de fazer um comentário inicial sobre esta conversa para estabelecer que lado da moeda cada um de vocês discutirá.

Então vamos mergulhar nas ações de Nayib, apenas nas ações de Nayib, exclusivamente. Em seguida, expanda isso para como suas ações estão afetando El Salvador e os salvadorenhos e, em seguida, expanda ainda mais para como isso afetará o Bitcoin.

[00:02:16] Jamie Garcia: Sim, obrigado. E você sabe, como para mim, você sabe, eu espero que, ao invés de ser um debate, seja mais uma conversa, um diálogo. E assim, você sabe, sendo salvadorenho e tendo vivido a maior parte da minha vida fora do país como um exilado dos anos oitenta da guerra civil, você sabe, eu definitivamente posso reconhecer que tenho muitos privilégios não apenas sociais, mas financeiros.

E então, você sabe, essa situação no terreno é bem diferente, mas eu também estive lá. Eu sei como é estar lá. E eu, e dou perspectiva de salvadorenho, salvadorenho, que faz parte da diáspora, que como muitos faz parte da diáspora, quero ver o país progredir. E nós, muitos de nós sentimos que o Bitcoin é uma maneira de fazer isso.

Certo. Então, e você sabe, olhando atentamente para os desenvolvimentos de como o país está lidando com as liberdades individuais de segurança, a liberdade financeira. E para mim, você sabe, eu não sou como alguns no Bitcoin, alegam o Twitter, não um status. Não sou um promotor de B Kelly ou seu governo, mas definitivamente sou um defensor de quando as coisas forem feitas.

Certo. Tenho críticas? Claro, mas até agora eu acho que eu também, há um bom caminho e você sabe, eu vou continuar apoiando se, se estiver nesse caminho e se mudar, então eu vou, minha mente, eu vou mudar meu panorama. E com certeza escreverei sobre isso também.

[00:03:57] Alex Gladstein: Desculpe, pessoal. Obrigado por me receber. Sim, quero dizer, e muito da minha nuance para usar nisso veio da pesquisa e reportagem que fiz no ano passado, que está em um ensaio da revista Bitcoin chamado a vila e o homem forte, que eu encorajaria. Todos para conferir. No final das contas, tudo se tratava de um punhado de pessoas realmente impressionantes na comunidade de Elante que ajudaram a fazer tudo isso decolar.

E eu, eu realmente creditaria esse movimento em oposição para, para o governo. Há algumas coisas com as quais eu provavelmente concordaria que os apoiadores do BKA comecem a escolher o Bitcoin como segunda moeda, em oposição a algum projeto CBDC ou, você sabe, uma aliança chinesa, é ótimo. Acho que isso é algo que eles merecem crédito por apresentar uma alternativa ao IM.

Muito bom. Esta é uma instituição que, você sabe, devastou muito do mundo e o explorou, canalizando recursos de países pobres para países ricos por décadas fazendo mineração com geotérmica e vulcões. Ótimo, ótima ideia. Vamos pesquisar e implementar esses títulos potencialmente vendidos com base nessa ideia muito interessante.

Espero que funcione atacando as remessas, que são exploratórias e, você sabe, muito caras, etc. Boa ideia. Colocando El Salvador no mapa. Quero dizer, isso é uma grande conquista e sim, obviamente ninguém vai falar sobre El Salvador, se você não tivesse feito isso. E então, finalmente, você sabe, destacando o papel que os EUA tiveram em El Salvador, o papel devastador que a política externa americana teve em El Salvador.

Estas são todas as coisas que eu provavelmente, você sabe, concordo com os defensores do buquê. Aí eu tenho divergências, né? Então, no final do dia, você sabe, a razão pela qual eu gosto do Bitcoin é, basicamente, porque ele vai separar o dinheiro do estado. Eu vejo a adoção estatal do Bitcoin e a adoção corporativa do Bitcoin como um resultado de seu mecanismo de adoção.

Não acho que precisamos torcer pelo governo. Sabe, isso agiliza esse processo. Não acho que precisamos torcer por corporações necessariamente que agilizam esse processo. Acho que devemos nos concentrar apenas na liberdade individual. É disso que se trata o Bitcoin. E, e é, é aí que há muita preocupação em El Salvador.

Quero dizer, acho que isso provavelmente se resume a Bitcoiners, o que, o que você, como você faz. O que você acha da guerra ao terror nos Estados Unidos? Muitas pessoas ouvindo são provavelmente americanos. Quero dizer, foi uma troca justa trocar liberdade e privacidade por, você sabe, segurança? Na minha opinião, não foi, na minha opinião, a guerra contra o terror foi um desastre e é como, você sabe, basicamente incendiou nossas liberdades civis.

E você sabe, eu acho que o que Nayib fez é, é, é, não é diferente e provavelmente para muito Salvador, bem pior. Eu sei que vamos entrar nisso, mas esses estados de exceção onde dezenas de milhares de pessoas foram presas sem julgamento algum, sem defesa legal, onde menores são tratados como adultos.

Esse estado de vigilância onde jornalistas e ativistas são acelerados por meio de um software muito caro Pegasus, essas novas leis, essas leis de agentes estrangeiros, que, você sabe, se aprovadas, literalmente confiscariam 40% de toda a renda estrangeira para ONGs e congelariam suas contas bancárias. Se, se ele não gostar do que você está fazendo.

Esses centros de contenção nos quais ele colocou as pessoas quando o C’s estourou, onde as pessoas estavam sendo presas por apenas usar máscaras faciais e dezenas de milhares de pessoas foram presos por, você sabe, um problema de saúde pública. E então o fato de que ele, havia juízes da Suprema Corte que diziam, não, nós não gostamos disso.

E então ele se livrou deles e então ele está se preparando para, você sabe, basicamente correndo para a vida, você sabe, ele quer ser presidente para a vida. Então, você sabe, eu acho que havia uma maneira de jogar isso do jeito certo. E ele não fez isso. Quero dizer, você sabe, como uma declaração de encerramento para a abertura aqui, eu só diria que eu acho que ele poderia ter trazido o movimento Bitcoin para Salvador de forma um pouco diferente.

Não trouxe. t precisa ser necessariamente moeda legal. Definitivamente, não precisava de um aplicativo Chivo. Ele poderia simplesmente retirar os ganhos de capital e promovê-lo de forma pacífica. E então ele poderia ter saído do palco e não. Preparado para concorrer novamente e violar a constituição. Ele poderia ter passado 48 anos vagando pelo mundo como um, não sei, Bitcoin Coon, e talvez correr novamente mais tarde, de acordo com as leis de sua nação, ele não quer fazer isso.

Não é sobre Bitcoin para ele. É sobre poder e controle.

[00:08:17] P: Então, eu gostaria de começar primeiro com algumas das ações dele, Alex, você expôs algumas de suas coisas, como , você sabe, removendo membros da Suprema Corte que vão atrás de empresas ou pessoas que não necessariamente concordam com ele. Vimos muitos relatórios sobre, você sabe, sua postura dura em relação ao crime. Se você, se eu puder pegar emprestado algo de nós, e nós vimos alguns dos relatórios saindo de quanto crime está baixo e quantos membros de gangues ele prendeu, bem como alguns jornalistas que não concordam com ele também.

Oi, em relação a algumas dessas ações e relatórios, quais são, quais são seus sentimentos sobre isso e como você faz. Eu não quero dizer justifique, mas como você absorve essa informação? E eu, eu vou meio que deixar, deixar um rabo e deixar você completar isso.

[00:09:07] Jamie Garcia: Bem, deixe-me começar dizendo que eu reconheço e você sabe, algumas das coisas que Alex disse, acho que estamos de acordo com o primeiro conjunto de sua lista.

Acho que provavelmente vamos discordar um pouco em termos de embelezamento de algumas, algumas das palavras com as quais ele está acostumado, para realmente descrever algumas coisas realmente complexas eventos que aconteceram em El Salvador e você sabe, reduzidos a pontos de discussão principalmente por sua oposição.

Certo. E uma das coisas que eu acho que muita gente não sabe em El Salvador é. A grande maioria da mídia é, na verdade, controle. E se vamos falar sobre, você sabe, a terminologia Bitcoin, ela está centralizada entre a elite dominante, a elite dominante entrincheirada, como Alec chama em seu livro.

E eles a usam como um mecanismo para influenciar a opinião pública, especialmente quando eles vêem que seus interesses e suas propriedades e seus negócios e assim por diante estão ameaçados. E então o que acontece é que quando são eles que controlam a narrativa, especialmente para o público internacional, é o que ouvimos e ficamos reduzidos a, a esses, você sabe, pontos de discussão chocantes e, claro, você sabe, o, o apelido de ditador e assim por diante, a realidade é que, para a maioria dos salvadorenhos que vivem no país, o que eles experimentaram foi uma redução drástica da insegurança.

A extorsão diminuiu significativamente. As pessoas podem sair e curtir o país, que é um país lindo e assim por diante. Então eu acho, você sabe, nós temos que ter cuidado porque nem tudo, não, nem toda a história está sendo contada. Alex apontou como uma longa lista de coisas. , você sabe, é difícil para mim abordar todos eles, mas, você sabe, eu posso apenas abordar uma parte, que é como se muitos desses pontos estivessem sendo avançados.

Por meios tradicionais, mas jornais tradicionais, canais tradicionais do país, que são todos financiados no exterior sem nenhuma assinatura local real, portanto, não são independentes, como eles afirmam, você sabe, uma das fontes que usa muito desses pontos de discussão. Seu lema é desconfortável.

Jornalismo. Basta pensar sobre isso. Para que isso é um eufemismo? Quero dizer, é basicamente um tablóide, então temos que ser muito céticos quando ouvimos isso. Vindo de novo, a elite entrincheirada de El Salvador que possui esses médiuns. Certo. Temos que ir lá e ouvir as pessoas no terreno e ver o que elas estão dizendo.

E o que elas estão dizendo é que as coisas estão melhores. Mesmo quando você olha para as pesquisas, você sabe, as pesquisas sobre segurança, como você se sente hoje? Não sobre isso, mas apenas, como você se sente hoje sobre sua segurança pessoal? Está muito melhor do que era antes. Portanto, há uma melhoria tangível na segurança e proteção do país, o que é essencial.

Se, se Sal vai atrair sua diáspora pessoas como eu e minha família e outros, bem como turistas e Bitcoiners e pessoas quem quer investir no país.

[00:12:37] P: Oi, você não poderia deixar de fazer uma aula de história completa aqui, mas poderíamos ter um breve resumo da guerra civil em El Salvador dos anos oitenta e como isso levou ao sistema bipartidário que de alguma forma estava envolvido em algum ponto, e se você concorda com a maneira como ele surgiu foi fundamental na minha, na minha opinião, de derrubar este sistema de duas partes e a introdução de um terceiro legítimo.

Você poderia nos explicar um pouco disso?

[00:13:14] Jamie Garcia: Sim, com certeza. E eu começaria dizendo que, você sabe, El Salvador nunca foi verdadeiramente livre, mesmo desde os tempos pré-colombianos onde o Maka, agora está falando, você sabe, as pessoas governaram o Thelan maia e a região até os espanhóis, então dominando, sobre todos os povos indígenas.

Depois os, os crioulos descendentes de espanhóis, mas a classe dominante nascida localmente, e depois as ditaduras militares no início do século 19 até as guerras civis nunca foi verdadeiramente livre. A guerra civil realmente começou porque, novamente, apenas o dinheiro da pobreza. o controle de recursos, a classe dominante, que, você sabe, é frequentemente chamada de.

As proverbiais 14 famílias, você sabe, há mais delas, mas você sabe, as 14 famílias que controlam tudo especificamente naquela época, em meados de 1900 a produção de café e as terras que produziam aquele café de grão dourado queriam manter as coisas que queriam controlar tudo, todos os aspectos do país para garantir seu investimento.

E isso levou a um assassinato em massa de milhares de indígenas na área de fulano de tal no país. Isso criou basicamente um movimento, um movimento de gorilas, um movimento de esquerda que dizia, veja, você sabe, como os salvadorenhos comuns, só querem poder viver em paz e liberdade e ter a capacidade de ganhar a vida com dignidade.

E, você sabe, naquela época era basicamente ter um pedaço de terra onde eles pudessem produzir sua própria comida. E essencialmente, quero dizer, sem entrar em muitos detalhes que levaram ao movimento que era contra o governo agora, o governo naquela época era uma ditadura. E e, mas os EUA apoiaram aquela ditadura brutal e, e eles, continuaram apoiando todos eles.

De 1980 a 1982, 83, quando a constituição, a atual constituição foi instalada. E a partir desse ponto, houve várias festas. O principal na época eram os democratas-cristãos, mas na verdade se tornou agora mesmo, que é um partido de direita e eles controlam.

Governo por, e, e estado por 30 anos, 1992 com o fim da União Soviética sem mais fundos chegando ao gorila de esquerda e realmente sem saída através do conflito armado, um chamado acordo de paz foi assinado entre o governo na época controlado por e o gorila de esquerda, que é uma organização chamada FMLN, que significa libertação.

Frente foi um desses líderes do, daquele massacre indígena que falei anteriormente. E. Então eles criaram aquela festa em homenagem a ele. E havia Amal uma amálgama de organizações de esquerda e eles assinaram esse comércio de paz, que basicamente dizia que desistiriam da luta armamentista.

Eles se tornariam um partido oficial e fariam algumas emendas à constituição para permitir isso. E então foi isso que aconteceu. E daí em diante aquelas duas festas que eles estão inundando, sabe, não tipo, sabe, foi como na Ana por um tempo, e depois no FMN, mas o que as pessoas viram foi que o saque e a corrupção e , e todas as coisas negativas que, você sabe, uma parte prometeu resolver através dos Acordos de paz, então a próxima parte, o FML N continuou, para cometer esses erros semelhantes e a população cada vez mais empobrecida a insegurança tornando-se ainda pior em 94 com o governo Clinton deportando muitos salvadorenhos dos EUA, a exploração da violência das gangues.

E você só pensa nisso, em uma tempestade perfeita, você sabe, sem empregos porque essencialmente o trabalho antes o que alimentou a economia foi a guerra que você emprega para estar no exército ou no exército, o movimento dos gorilas e a reconstrução e algo como a luta na guerra. Então agora você não tem nada disso, nenhum esforço de construção de risco, todo o dinheiro da reconstrução vai para você.

Corrupção e desfalque e assim por diante. E então todos esses jovens levando sua guerra de gangues vencida direto dos EUA para El Salvador, onde há, você sabe, a economia está em frangalhos. Então, uma tempestade perfeita e nada foi abordado. E, você sabe, chegou ao ponto em que isso permitiu que pessoas com ideias diferentes, como não apenas que, mas muitas outras pessoas que pensavam semelhante, fossem eleitas em partidos tradicionais no início.

Mas então quando viram que era a mesma corrupção que eles tinham visto antes de criarem um novo movimento, certo? Que foi expulso de sua festa. Ele formou um novo partido e, você sabe, pediu aos salvadorenhos para apoiá-lo, colocou uma plataforma e disse: é para isso que estou sendo eleito. Se for eleito, é isso que vou fazer.

Chama-se LAN, que é o nome original de El Salvador. E e está online. Se você pesquisar no Google, está online. Tudo o que aconteceu, incluindo a leitura dos juízes como Alex coloca, está lá. Nada foi ad hoc ou, você sabe, apenas política em tempo real. É, está tudo lá desde o início.

E esse plano foi criado com a contribuição de todos os salvadorenhos, incluindo a diáspora.

[00:19:09] P: Obrigado. Oi, pode o Alex sair de, você sabe, o que ele compartilhou. Eu queria destacar algumas coisas que compartilhamos antes de vocês dois se juntarem a nós. Então, quando BHA concorreu a seu primeiro cargo público foi para o município de, e oi, desculpe minha terrível pronúncia em espanhol, Nevo Kalan

[00:19:33] Jamie Garcia: LAN.

Sim, na verdade agora não é nem mesmo uma palavra em espanhol, agora que palavra? Novo era um novo Klan. Então

[00:19:41] P: obrigado. Assim, em sua primeira campanha para prefeito, ele ganhou o cargo de prefeito em 2012. Parte de sua campanha foi a promessa de ser duro com o crime. Relata-se que esta jurisdição estava tendo 12 homicídios por ano até o final de seu mandato, como prefeito, após três anos, houve um total de três homicídios.

Obviamente a denúncia, pode haver dúvidas em esse respeito. Aí, tudo bem. Ele já lançou a pergunta sobre este relatório que já estávamos pensando no fundo de nossa mente. Mesmo com seu tipo de mandato como prefeito de Salvador enviado, correu em uma abordagem dura em relação ao crime, queria ser mais rigoroso contra a violência de gangues.

E novamente, correu em uma abordagem semelhante como uma de suas promessas de campanha para presidência. Nós vimos isso vir à tona. Nós o vimos seguir adiante, independentemente de quão agressivos possamos pensar que suas ações são. Minha pergunta para você é se ele está cumprindo essa promessa e cumprindo a promessa para os eleitores, ele está fazendo o certo por eles e fazendo isso?

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[00:23:44] Alex Gladstein: Isso é para mim. Para, sim.

[00:23:51] P: Ok. Não, isso é para

[00:23:52] Alex Gladstein: você, Alex. Sim. Sim. Bem, quero dizer, eu provavelmente sou a pessoa errada, errada para perguntar. Eu sou tendencioso. Sou um ativista das liberdades civis. Eu não acho que seja aceitável tirar as liberdades civis da população. Não há nenhuma condição, você sabe, liberdade ou morte, você sabe, essa é a minha filosofia.

Eu acho que centralizar o poder nas mãos do estado militar é ruim, sem exceções. Quando se trata das especificidades de Salvador, quero dizer, claramente a violência das gangues havia diminuído antes que o bouquet tomasse o poder. Claramente, caiu muito mais enquanto ele estava no poder nos níveis local e federal.

Eu, eu, eu não sei exatamente, você sabe, o que você quer atribuir para isso. Claramente muito disso é o fato de que ele é ele, você. Fui hiper agressivo em prender grandes quantidades de pessoas sem o devido processo. E isso cria um estado de medo entre qualquer um que pensa em causar problemas.

Isso é o que eles fazem na China. É claro. Acho que parte disso também é o fato de ele colaborar com as gangues. Então, e eu, não sou necessariamente contra isso, mas deve-se dizer que está bem documentado que eles o chamam de Batman. Como se eles tivessem uma palavra para ele que eles gostassem, em todas as suas comunicações privadas.

Então, você sabe, se você está preocupado apenas com a taxa de homicídio, isso é problema seu? Então sim, você deveria, então, então eu esperaria que você fosse, você seria totalmente legal com um estado policial totalitário e, e, e você desistiria de qualquer coisa para chegar lá, mas essa não é a visão que eu tenho. E não acho que essa seja a visão de muitos Bitcoiners.

Não acho que essa seja a visão de muitos Bitcoiners. Eu acho que eles prefeririam um estado menor. Acho que eles prefeririam menos estados de exceção. E, só para dar alguns detalhes, pense bem sobre isso e compare com o que você tem no Canadá, talvez, talvez, até mesmo onde vimos um declínio da democracia, provavelmente lá também.

E certamente nos Estados Unidos, especialmente depois de nove 11, mas vamos considerar apenas algumas coisas. Então, neste estado de exceção, os detentos, como se você fosse pego na rua, você não tem uma defesa legal. Não há direito igual para isso. O, o, o direito de pessoas em grupo se reunirem em grupos de mais de dois foi suspenso.

Então você não poderia nem se reunir com três ou quatro pessoas na rua sem que isso fosse motivo provável para ser preso, os menores sendo julgados, coisa de adulto é uma loucura pra mim. Você sabe, eu acho que o fato de que também os meios de comunicação foram impedidos de relatar até mesmo sobre isso, e você pode pegar 10 anos de prisão, você pode pegar 10 anos de prisão durante um estado de exceção em El Salvador por escrever algo isso pode causar pânico no público.

Certo. E novamente, apenas para reiterar que mais de três, você sabe, mais de 30 jornalistas e ativistas. Quem, quem foi o mais problemático para o governo, sabe, teve o telefone deles infectado, com o spyware Pegasus. Então eles estavam sendo monitorados de perto. Você sabe, tudo isso você sabe, em combinação com os números, os números absolutos, você sabe, mais de 50.000 pessoas foram presas nessa guerra, você sabe, guerra contra a guerra, contra as gangues.

Isso é ainda mais do que os 30.000 ou mais que estamos presos na guerra contra o COVID. Certo. Então você tem esse homem forte que não sei qual será a próxima guerra guerra contra COVID guerra contra gangues. Deus sabe o que virá a seguir. Eles tendem a, eles tendem a gostar de enquadrar as coisas em um tipo muito terrível de guerra de guerra, tipo, você sabe, estrutura linguística, isso é o que eles, o que eles preferem fazer basicamente, você sabe, tente culpar qualquer um que se oponha a eles como sendo fraco ou.

Você sabe, isso é suave, isso é o que eles fazem na América também. Quero dizer, especialmente no nível local, eu sei que as pessoas que estão ouvindo devem saber disso. Você tem esses chefes de polícia e governadores hipócritas e, e, e representantes estaduais. E, e eles querem, se você, se você defender as liberdades civis e disser, bem, talvez não devêssemos prender todo mundo, eles dirão, oh, você está sendo brando com o crime.

Isso é como uma coisa clássica no governo. E eu só acho que é excessivo e é ruim. Eu também queria entrar nas coisas do COVID. Como eu imagino que a maioria dos Bitcoiners é relativamente cética em relação à reação exagerada do governo ao problema de saúde pública do vírus COVID. Quero dizer, o que Buki era, era literalmente louco.

Quero dizer, ele tinha dezenas, ele tinha mais de 10, mais de 10 dezenas de milhares de pessoas detidas, você sabe, novamente totalmente como sem isso não era constitucional. E o juiz da Suprema Corte é novamente quem, que apontou isso, foi posteriormente demitido. Quero dizer, ele tinha pessoas em centros de contenção. Claro que isso foi totalmente jogado no vaso sanitário e todo mundo esqueceu e fingiu que não aconteceu, mas foi há dois anos e meio.

Não foi há muito tempo. O mesmo cara, ele não mudou nada. Também queria falar brevemente sobre a carteira Chivo. Então, de novo, como se houvesse um caminho para fazer isso Alex

[00:28:26] Jamie Garcia: vamos, oh, vá em frente.

[00:28:26] P: Ótimo. Chegaremos à carteira Chivo. Eu quero, eu quero descompactar o COVID disso. Sim, vá, vá em frente. Olá, talvez Alex tenha falado e, desde então, vimos alguns países que adotaram e até alguns estados que adotaram uma postura muito agressiva em relação ao COVID.

Vimos outros que adotaram uma postura menos postura agressiva sabe, entendendo e vendo, eu acho do outro lado, retrospectiva sendo 2020 e o que COVID. É agora versus o que era então, estou curioso para saber se você sentiu no Mo na época que essas decisões estavam sendo tomadas por que se elas eram justificadas, além de olhar para trás, se esta era uma resposta adequada ao que foi considerado na época, uma pandemia global.

[00:29:12] Jamie Garcia: Sim. Então, você sabe, me dê um, um, um líder de, de um país no mundo naquela época que não fez algum tipo de medição que hoje, olhando para trás, parece um pouco uma reação exagerada, certo. E então, você sabe, eu diria, você sabe, eu diria que em grande parte, eu, eu não discordaria disso, que, você sabe, tendo o benefício de olhar para trás, provavelmente havia maneiras de faça isso.

O que acontece é que você tem que julgar o país pela capacidade que ele tem de proteger seus cidadãos. E novamente, você sabe, eu sei que Alex está muito preocupado com o estado de direito, a constituição de El Salvador afirma que a função primária do governo e do estado é cuidar da vida dos salvadorenhos.

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Essa é a origem e o fim de todo o propósito deles. Certo. E na época, você sabe, recebendo conselhos da organização mundial de saúde de seus próprios médicos, sem saber o que sabemos sobre o COVID na época. Você sabe, eles reagem dessa maneira. E principalmente porque El Salvador não tem infraestrutura de saúde, tipo, como Suécia, Suécia, por exemplo, se você olhar para isso, sabe, na época eles estavam sendo super criticados por isso, mas você olha para a Suécia e, você sabe, a Suécia é um país moderno, você sabe, eles têm a infraestrutura e a capacidade de fornecer assistência médica para, você sabe, sua população de uma maneira cada vez mais eficaz que El Salvador e a maior parte da América Central.

Certo. Então. Eles também, você sabe, têm acesso a medicamentos e tudo isso, isso e então a decisão naquele momento, você sabe, segundo nos disseram, foi porque a infras, a infraestrutura de saúde de El Salvador, a saúde pública infraestrutura Salvador não conseguia lidar com uma situação como a que estavam presenciando na Espanha e na Itália na época.

Eles simplesmente não conseguiam. E na nossa população, você sabe, temos um pouco de crise de saúde também, em termos de diabetes, em termos de, você sabe, pessoas com alto risco de doenças secundárias que podem afetar, você sabe, os efeitos de COVID em, na população. E com base nisso, é por isso que a decisão foi tomada.

Sabe, eu concordo com isso agora? I think there could have been better ways to handle it, but you know, let’s not, you know, let’s not put El Salvador in a, in, in a corner and judge them alone. Let’s, let’s look at what everybody else did at the time, including the, you know, certain states in the us and Canada and Europe.

Right. So, I don’t know if Alex, if you’re familiar with mass flow’s hierarchy of needs, right. You know, Maslow hierarchy of needs, you know, at the bottom of the pyramid, are your physiological needs your safe then followed by safety, love and belonging then self-esteem. And then at the top is self-actualization feel when it comes to El Salvador, everybody’s judging El Salvador by self-actualization when they’re just starting to get their physiological and safety needs in order.

So, you know, let’s. Maybe pause about it, let’s check our financial privilege and let’s look at everything within context. I wanna just

[00:33:00] P: jump in and push back a little bit there, because I think that Alex’s point is that the extremes to which the Salvador and government went during, for example, COVID seems disproportionate given the the situation.

And I think that, you know, people are very, very, or were very, very quick to to kind of castigate China’s behavior during this period, you know? And they were, there were videos of people, them like welding building shit. Everybody was like, oh my gosh, this is, this is so intense. This is horrible. And there was a lot of fear involved tutoring that period because people didn’t know exactly what was going on and everybody was trying to figure it out.

But I think that to Alex’s point, these types of situations are. Or can be very convenient when one is trying to, you know, suppress the movement of a people and control information flow in a group of people in order to serve different ends. And so, I, I, I do think it’s, it is, it is I don’t think anyone should be trying to justify those kinds of actions within like a context of sort of like public safety.

Cuz I think that regardless, I feel like most Bitcoiners at least would argue that like, you know, we should be able to move freely and, and conduct ourselves as we, as we would like. But, but I feel like with El Salvador, because Bitcoin is involved, people tend to, I don’t wanna say turn blind eye, but use kind of kid gloves in a way that I think is, is, is interesting and counterproductive.

[00:34:24] Jamie Garcia: Well as a Bitcoin, I would tend to agree with you, but you know, as. As, as a decision maker for the entire country and health, and not really knowing if this thing is like, you know, as bad as it could be, you know, I can also understand why things were done the way that they were. I mean, you know, yeah.

Things could have been done better on that, on that, but again, we we’re, we’re two years out from that. And and let’s remember that El Salvador was one of the first country to give up all restrictions, you know? And you know, I just recently saw one of the things that. One, a tweet from a, a Bitcoin or that was leaving El Salvador from Mexico.

And it was prevented to go into the plane because you wouldn’t wear a mask. You don’t have to do that in El Salva. See when facts change, then you have to change your thinking and then you have to change your policy and that’s what’s happened. Certo? So, and, and, and that’s, that’s what shows growth is when you’re able to look at situations, say, you know what, maybe, maybe we didn’t get it right.

But here it is, we’re gonna rectify and we’re gonna make it right. Move forward. That’s you know, that’s, I think that’s more important rather than, than when we got it wrong. You know, like to my own kids, I say just like, don’t be afraid to make, make mistakes. OK. If you think you’re, you’re doing the right thing, if you make mistake,

[00:35:47] Alex Gladstein: learn from it and move on, this is an extremely charitable description of what he did in reality.

He got tired and couldn’t really squeeze more justification for extreme measures out COVID. So he moved on to the gangs. It’s pretty clean. Actually, if you look at the chronology of it Then he was locking up tens of thousands of people, tens of thousands of people here. I mean, okay. No government, as you say, was, was innocent there and, and it certainly, it, it ranged, right.

I mean, you had China at the extreme end and you had, you know, some other countries that were quite pretty light touch on the other end. I mean, imprisoning tens of thousands of people certainly is on the extreme end. I mean, we, we, we could be very critical about like, I live in California. I mean, no one was arrested here for there.

Weren’t tens of thousands of people arrested here for not wearing a mask or, or not, not, you know, you know, adhering to some sort of protocol. I mean that there are degrees of freedom. And this was, this was extreme. Once that cooled down. He moved on to other things. And by the way, there were other PR projects there.

Like he started this, he, he claimed to build this whole new hospital. That was gonna be like the leading light of whatever. Never even got finished. It’s still under construction,

[00:36:56] Jamie Garcia: but again, no, it’s, it’s there and it actually took not done from

[00:36:59] Alex Gladstein: Costa Rica. It’s not done, it’s not done the,

[00:37:02] Jamie Garcia: the part where he actually could house extreme cases and, and actually triage, you know, the expected flow of, of sick people.

That’s all completed. And it’s actually

[00:37:14] Alex Gladstein: functional, but it’s PR device because it, it’s not anywhere close, gone to the hospital. No, I’ve gone to the hospital. Say

[00:37:23] Jamie Garcia: that. Não não não. See,

[00:37:24] Alex Gladstein: see dude, you’re in Canada. I mean, what, what right now I am. Sim. So are you there right now? Like, no, but my

[00:37:32] Jamie Garcia: family’s there.

They have access the hospital.

[00:37:34] Alex Gladstein: Actually the hospital thing is a total PR move, but anyway, we can move on. So yeah, it just is, it just is so, if he, if he was committed to it and actually cared about it he, would’ve not like moved on to some other thing. He would’ve continued to focus on that stuff, but anyway, the point being that Bitcoin that continues to get improved.

Okay. Bitcoin should be extremely skeptical of this guy, given sure. I

[00:37:57] Jamie Garcia: invited everybody who’s down there to go

[00:37:59] Alex Gladstein: check it. Não não não. Forget the hospital. That’s just one outta many little things he sprinkled there. OK. We’re forgetting

[00:38:04] Jamie Garcia: the hospital now. Sim.

[00:38:06] Alex Gladstein: We’re forgetting the main thing that we’re not gonna forget is the tens of thousands of people that were arrested without due process.

That’s the main thing that I’ve been talking about. Certo? What I was trying to say,

[00:38:14] Jamie Garcia: you know, Salvador alone, when every other country did that,

[00:38:18] Alex Gladstein: California. Não não. California government did not lock up tens of thousands of people without to process

[00:38:23] Jamie Garcia: ELs Salvador didn’t lock up. Yes, they did. First of all,

[00:38:27] P: yes, they did that.

That is undeniable. There were people that were jailed.

[00:38:30] Jamie Garcia: Yes. There’s more than

[00:38:31] Alex Gladstein: 30,000 people in what, what, whatever you, I mean, if you wanna sit here, say that’s a detention center, but that’s a jail. Like

[00:38:39] Jamie Garcia: there’s a difference. There’s a difference. OK. They were, the treatment that you get in jail is, is very different than the treatment that, that you get in, in quarantine.

Look, I mean, we’re probably on the same page with a lot of

[00:38:51] Alex Gladstein: coping stuff. Bom. We can move on. The point is that’s you’re right. That chapter’s over now. He’s moved on to the gangs. So now it’s tens of thousands of people being. Arrested without due process. Again, minors being treated as adults the media being forbidden from reporting on the topic.

And this is just, this is the next thing. So what’s the next thing gonna be? I, I would say, I

[00:39:10] Jamie Garcia: don’t know

[00:39:11] P: that in particular is extremely concerning to me. There’s a lot concerning here, but when, whenever the media is prevented from reporting on a topic, that is a huge, huge red flag in my mind. And it’s, I can’t think of any rational way to justify that

[00:39:27] Alex Gladstein: as a reasonable action.

Again, I went through the, the things that I, I would credit this government for doing mm-hmm and I just don’t see why these actions are necessary. Like, if you wanna pursue a new economic model, if you want to promote Bitcoin in the country, This has nothing to do with locking up all these people. And, and in fact, I think what’s kind of noticeable and obvious that I, I realized a while ago is that he uses these like announcements to to sort of, or, or he uses PR and announcements to kind of like distract from like what’s happening.

He started doing this during COVID so he used COVID to like basically justify all these actions he had. And then later he, he, you know, right after he sacked the attorney general and, and cleaned out the Supreme court, he had the announcement in, in Miami, which, which I was there for. And by the way was, was awesome.

It was great. But I didn’t, I, I didn’t realize what had happened. I was like, kind of fooled. Like I didn’t realize what, what was happening in El Salvador. I was ignorant of what was happening on the ground. I just thought this was cool. Cause I was like a Bitcoin. Certo? I didn’t actually do my homework on that one.

Later at the end of last year, this whole Bitcoin city announcement, which obviously is a huge joke. There’s not gonna be a Bitcoin city in the way he like laid out. I mean, it’s, it’s obviously a distraction was right after they passed. They proposed a new foreign agent law again, which I described if you are a journalistic outfit or a human rights outfit in Salvador, in Sal Salvador now, and this law passes as designed by the government.

And you receive any money at all or any indirect support from like, let’s say my organization or any organization. OK. Then you have to give 40% of those funds to the government, 40% tax. And it’s like, he basically gives license to the banking sector to freezer stuff. So, I mean, he’s consistent. And then of course the Bitcoin law, when it passed.

Then when it was implemented in September, it was right after he basically got the Supreme court to say he could rule forever or whatever. So, every time there’s like a major kind of erosion of, of the state and his checks and he dismantles checks on his power. He finds some way to distract the public from it.

He’s a very, very, very, very savvy politician. He’s very, very good at what he does. That’s why he’s extremely popular. Alex, can you

[00:41:43] Jamie Garcia: point out exactly how the law states that the, or the proposed law states that it forbids people to report on gangs?

[00:41:56] Alex Gladstein: Okay. So we’re going back to a different thing.

[00:41:57] Jamie Garcia: Yeah, no. The first thing that you started to talk about, like the thing is, it’s difficult to answer all your points when you squeeze in.

[00:42:06] Alex Gladstein: Well that’s cuz there’s so many, so many blatant violations of civil liberties in El Salvador. I mean, we don’t, we only have an hour dude.

We could be here for, I know, I know, but

[00:42:15] Jamie Garcia: can, okay. Let’s just for argument sake, 10 years in

[00:42:17] Alex Gladstein: prison for journalists, I’m reading it 10 years in prison for journalists that could panic the public. You wanna challenge

[00:42:22] Jamie Garcia: that? No, that’s not what it says, dude. Wait, did wait minute. OK. OK, go ahead. You read it in Spanish.

Give a translation. Here’s here’s here’s the intent of the law. It’s it’s that if you are reporting or in an ethnographic investigation embedded within criminal organizations, it is your duty to report. If there is going to be people’s lives at stake, otherwise you become a, a, an accomplice to the crime.

It just bringing clarification to that because there was instances where so-called journalists were embedded with some of these criminal organizations. They knew some of the things that they were gonna do. They wrote about them and failed to report that to the organizations. There’s an ethical principle behind journalism and, and, and I state

[00:43:24] Alex Gladstein: the state.

Doesn’t get to decide that no,

[00:43:27] Jamie Garcia: when, when journalists don’t actually live up to those principles and, you know, I think maybe, maybe some states will decide to do that. I’m not saying, okay, well, I think

[00:43:37] Alex Gladstein: the audience can determine whether or not the government should providing the laws for whether or not, you know, what, how journalists should report.

But, well, it’s,

[00:43:43] Jamie Garcia: it’s more or less about whether you can be accomplished to a crime.

[00:43:48] Alex Gladstein: So wait, where, I mean, the government is literally working with the gangs.

[00:43:50] Jamie Garcia: I mean, I don’t, I’m sorry. Can you provide actual evidence that that’s happening? Tons guys is

[00:43:56] P: your source. What’s your source. I’ve lost the thread personally.

Yeah. So what is the higher level topic or the point that, that is that we’re sort of discussing? I think that Alex, you made the, what to me feels like a very reasonable point like this this, the law that, that is apparently saying that there’s basically you, you can receive to 10 years in prison for reporting on gangs.

I think there’s some nuances there Hemi that you’re going into, but

[00:44:20] Alex Gladstein: let’s just say if we don’t do it correctly per the government. Yeah, sure.

[00:44:23] Jamie Garcia: Well, you just can be an accomplice to a crime. That’s what it’s

[00:44:27] Alex Gladstein: so well, when you own the court system, Jamie, then, then to decide, dude, you

[00:44:31] Jamie Garcia: can report, you can report.

You just can’t be an accomplice to a crime without sorting

[00:44:37] Alex Gladstein: it. You know, let me, let me ask you who decides let’s move on, but, but let, let’s just say that this let’s say you go back to El Salvador tomorrow. Mm-hmm , you’re there. You have a change of heart. You change your mind after our debate here today and you become critical que okay.

So let’s say you. Contribute to an article in a news story comes out or you in, in some way you are publicly critical of him. I mean, how confident are you that that court system is gonna uphold your rights? I mean, how confident are you that this court system, if you are critical of que is gonna actually protect your stuff, or is this just a country for beque supporters now?

[00:45:13] Jamie Garcia: You know, there are several newspaper, like I said, most media, like 98% of the media and Salvador, I would say like, you know, probably the state paper, but, you know, could you believe them either, right. But other than that is all opposing B, they report daily, not one journalist is in jail. They have taken actually to put cartoon characters with such disdain.

Not only for his policies, but for him as a person actually mocking his two year old daughter and insulting her. No, one’s in jail.

[00:45:58] Alex Gladstein: Okay. You didn’t really answer my question, but no, like what I’m

[00:46:02] Jamie Garcia: saying is that the press can report freely. Nobody has gone to jail. Nobody is being prevented from reporting. This is all just embellishment who like, who, like, which of your friends are from El Salvador that are journalists supposedly are in jail right

[00:46:19] Alex Gladstein: now.

Well, that would be a pretty low bar dude. I mean, that would be horrible journalists who are in prison.

[00:46:25] Jamie Garcia: Yeah. But so there’s, there’s nobody because it’s not happening.

[00:46:30] Alex Gladstein: Okay. Well, I mean, I think that there is something called a climate of fear that governments use. I mean, a lot of people say the same thing about the United States.

You know, there’s no journalists in prison. Não sei. I mean, you, you, you, you can judge, you can judge, you can judge whether or not that makes, that means the media climate is free or not. The point is there are laws in place that prevent people from speaking their mind and from free expression. Mm-hmm um, I, I, again, if you wanna justify, look, this is, this all comes down to this huge philosophical debate over law and order versus freedom.

And if, if you wanna take the side that, Hey, in special times, we need to restrict the rights of the people to secure the nation. Then B’s your guy. There’s no question. There’s no question.

[00:47:19] Jamie Garcia: I think you can have both

[00:47:21] Q: I wanna hop in here and present a question. Alex, to you, as someone like I come from a perspective of.

An American immigrant. I see laws, how they operate in other countries like Iran, my Homeland, as well as in this country. And I see certain benefits as well as some flaws in assuming Western systems into other countries and cultures. There’s a historical example of this. And the one I will pull on is Singapore, regardless of the approach of the prime minister and how long he held power and his approach and toughness against drug and drug users and drug dealers.

We cannot discount how far that country and that region has grown as a result from a very strict leader, imposing their own will on the country and its people we’ve heard B Kayley compare himself to. This leader from Singapore, we’ve heard him say statements like I’m the world’s coolest dictator. My question is, are we putting too much emphasis on Western values and principles into a country that quite frankly doesn’t want those principles ingrained in, in its society?

[00:48:45] Jamie Garcia: That’s a good question. I mean, you know, and, and like, again, I, I’m gonna refer back to master’s hierarchy of needs, you know, and where El Salvador is in that continuum is it’s in the safety needs. It’s trying to establish personal security, making sure that people have employment, make making sure that people have health and access to property, you know, yet a lot.

Liberal Democrats philosophy in terms of philosophy, speaking on ideologically speaking, judging El Salvador to be at that self actualization. If you are a nation who’s developed and self actualizing that at that point, if you start infringing on, you know, randomly on people’s rights, of course that’s wrong.

Salvador’s not doing that. OK. El Salvador is specifically targeting the people who are extorting the population. That’s just not less than 1% less.

[00:49:49] Alex Gladstein: One’s false. It’s less than 1%. There’s there’s no process. None of these people have there’s no, there’s no trials. They’re being put the tens of thousands of people are being arrested with no trials.

So how can you say, how can you say it’s targeted? So in the constitution

[00:50:05] Jamie Garcia: under extreme circumstances, Which

[00:50:10] Alex Gladstein: executive are conveniently three of the last four years. Like, I don’t know, like when is it not gonna be an extreme circumstances? Oh no.

[00:50:16] Jamie Garcia: The El Salvador to be Frank has been extreme circumstances since the Maka invaded, you know, the region.

Okay. Então, tudo bem. So, so, so let’s be Frank. The state of exception was used consistently throughout the civil war. Certo? In fact, it’s, it’s only recently that hasn’t been used and it’s been invo specifically to, to deal with, you know, the insecurity issue. And so when we think about that, the constitution, cuz you know, you said the rule of law, the constitution permits that is a tool and the president asks for it from the assembly, the assembly then has to get an absolute majority.

That means. Three quarters of, of a part of the assembly in order to get that, if it doesn’t meet that bar, it doesn’t, he doesn’t get that state of exception. So that, that is the due process and that is what’s happened. OK. And it’s undisputable that, that assembly was dually elected with international observers, vetting it and qualifying as fair and free.

[00:51:34] Alex Gladstein: Okay. Well, I mean the audience can fact check that. I obviously sure. No, absolutely disagree, but no, I think, I think just to, just to go back to the previous point, I think you have a climate in El Salvador now where like, I don’t know how anyone, I know there’s a lot of Bitcoiners down there who are very pro UK who are psyched good for them.

But like, if you’re, if you’re antique. I don’t know how you could possibly be confident that a court would rule in your favor in a high profile case. I just don’t

[00:51:58] Jamie Garcia: don’t pro or anti B Kelly. You can just be Salvador. And I think that that’s what a lot of people are. Wait, wait, wait. But

[00:52:06] P: that feels like a

[00:52:07] Jamie Garcia: side step because I think, no, it’s not a side step I’m listen, I’ll change my mind about B Kelly.

If he starts to do things that, that I feel are

[00:52:17] P: in,

[00:52:18] Jamie Garcia: in, in, in a way that pressing innocent people, the people who are in jail right now, the majority are gangsters. So wait, right.

[00:52:29] P: Alex just made a statement. He said that if you, he would not, or he don’t, I’m gonna, I’m gonna for butcher this, but he said something to the effect of.

The average person should not feel comfortable or he would not feel comfortable if he was in a Harry Parel case you know, arguing or expressing negative sentiment around the president of El Salvador. And you said, I think that I would only be worried if I wasn’t expressing or if I was expressing negative sentiment around El Salvador as a country, but I think that’s still a problem, right?

Like one should be able to express one’s opinions, whether negative or positive in a high profile case or a low profile case and not have to worry about you know, whether or not you’re gonna be put into a dark

[00:53:04] Alex Gladstein: hole. Certo? Like how good is your, how good is your Bitcoin? If the government can just come and just grab you without any justification, I think that’s what Bitcoiners should consider here.

[00:53:12] Jamie Garcia: No, I mean, you, you can use any wallet you want and they’re not gonna confiscate

[00:53:16] Alex Gladstein: it from you. Não não não. I mean, how good is Bitcoin general? If the government can just take you off the street without any sort of due process or a trial, they can just, I think we’ll agree.

[00:53:25] Jamie Garcia: That’s why we like Bitcoin,

[00:53:26] Alex Gladstein: because that can’t happen.

Okay. Well, but that, that is happening right now in El Salvador. No, it’s not. People

[00:53:33] Jamie Garcia: can have their Bitcoin in, in a,

[00:53:35] Alex Gladstein: I’m not, not, sorry. I’m not being clear. What I’m saying is let’s say you’re one of these 50,000 people who’ve been detained without any sort of due process or trial over the last few months in this state of exception.

What good is that? Person’s Bitcoin. If they’re just, they could just be jailed like that. Like Bitcoin is a great tool. Eu apoio. The most important tool for freedom in the world, in my opinion, mm-hmm, , it’s not sufficient. Like mm-hmm and, and the fact that so many people are out here, one thing is being.

Nuanced about PKA and I’ve tried to do that. I, I, at the outset, I tried to say there are a bunch of things that are positive. I’m not here, like Steve hanky, like with some, like, you know, yeah. Personal anti Pallia agenda. I could care less. The fact is you should be nuanced and reasonable and it is unreasonable to just be like, oh, whatever, everything he’s done is like, it’s not that big of a deal.

Let’s just support him cuz he is pro Bitcoin. It is a big deal. We should be alarmed about tens of thousands of people being arrested. And we should be alarmed about like the way he goes after his critics. And we should be alarmed about the way he’s preventing justice from being served with regard to the war crimes in the eighties,

[00:54:44] Jamie Garcia: like you should be alarmed.

The us should be alarm international as a global, a global citizen, Salvador, Salvador, and should

[00:54:50] Alex Gladstein: no global citizens should be alarmed. Jamie. So like as

[00:54:54] Jamie Garcia: in a neo-colonial type of paternalistic way, we’re gonna tell no,

[00:54:59] Alex Gladstein: dude I’ve written a lot more about anti-colonialism than you have. Like I’m I’m very anticolonial thank you.

This is

[00:55:05] Jamie Garcia: why I’m I’m I’m actually I’m actually I, you

[00:55:10] Alex Gladstein: wait you’re are you not, are you not clear that he’s he’s preventing justice from happening at Elte? Like you’re not clear on that, that

[00:55:20] Jamie Garcia: have you actually have you actually read what happened at. Of course, have you actually read what happened? Sim. Cite that

[00:55:28] Alex Gladstein: book.

Well, you said you wrote my in my book, I cite that book. Of course, the judge who’s trying to get the military dictator folks who had ordered all those massacres in prison has been basically taken out and B’s preventing justice from being served. That’s the latest you know, there, and he doesn’t, he doesn’t wanna piss off the military, which I understand cuz he’s gotta have them run his brick and COVID containment centers,

[00:55:51] Jamie Garcia: centers.

So do, do you understand those do not exist? First of all, what don’t exist? They’re no COVID containers.

[00:55:58] Alex Gladstein: They no, no, no. Those were in 2020. Okay. And now they’re the, the gang, the gang centers.

[00:56:03] Jamie Garcia: Have you read the piece? The, the

[00:56:06] Alex Gladstein: peace agreement, the peace agreement between El

[00:56:10] Jamie Garcia: Salvador government and the girls.

This

[00:56:12] Alex Gladstein: is, this is not relevant. The point I’m no,

[00:56:13] Jamie Garcia: it is relevant because, because it gives amnesty to all these crooks. The same crooks that, that you dislike. I, I dislike. So

[00:56:21] Alex Gladstein: if BCA is on your side then, and he doesn’t want them to have amnesty, why is he stopping an investigation into the military role? The S

[00:56:29] Jamie Garcia: peace agreement gave amnesty to these crooks.

Okay.

[00:56:35] Alex Gladstein: A peace

[00:56:35] Jamie Garcia: agreement that he did not sign. He was in the side of the people who got

[00:56:39] Alex Gladstein: was a child. It’s not, he wasn’t

[00:56:42] Jamie Garcia: responsible. Exatamente. So then why, why are you claiming that he’s responsible somehow?

[00:56:47] Alex Gladstein: He’s he is defrocking or whatever verb you want use. He’s basically removing from power judges that want to go after the military who committed these murders in collaboration with the United States government.

What, why, why is that not a problem for you? OK. Let,

[00:57:03] Jamie Garcia: let me just ask you something. Mm-hmm if you’re, you’re gonna tie up resources to, to go after people who are either dead. No, they’re not dead gone Salvador. Some of them are old who have amnesty because of the peace agreements. Anyway,

[00:57:21] Alex Gladstein: I mean, I think it would be great to see these people behind prison and behind bars, but I guess that’s just my

[00:57:25] Jamie Garcia: personal, do you understand the concept of amnesty?

[00:57:29] Q: I think we’re, I think we’re losing the plot a little bit. Step. Oi. Olá Matt. Let’s just, let’s. We’re gonna shift. We have about 30 minutes left on the scheduled debate conversation. I don’t wanna shift now to the Bitcoin of it all specifically. We’ve highlighted the Chivo, the Chivo wallet rollout. I want to discuss that as well as I just wanted discuss the fact that bouquet has been purchasing Bitcoin.

Government funds. Seemingly has slowed down a comment we were having internally amongst ourselves is why have we not seen or heard anything of BHA announcing buying more Bitcoin, buying the dip in the way he did a year ago, six months ago. And I don’t wanna necessarily call it the failed rollout, but the delayed rollout of the volcano bonds to Alex’s point earlier as well, this promise of a Bitcoin city, a lot of promises around Bitcoin and a lot of moves made by Quele.

Alex, I will start with you to just sort of take both sides of what are the things at Al’s done with Bitcoin that you will applaud’em for as well as some of the things you are more critical.

[00:58:42] Alex Gladstein: Yeah. I mean, I thought that the volcano bond thing was cool. I think it’s a cool idea. I think he’s having trouble executing it.

I think there’s probably forces beyond his control that are preventing from him, from executing on that macro environment is not great. I think mining is great, really happy to see hopefully the Salvador government and society take advantage of the geothermal power that’s been sort of, you know, not used.

And in general, like choosing Bitcoin as a, as a national currencies is great. I think my, my issues have a lot less to do with Bitcoin and a lot more to do with everything else that PKA does. If I were to nitpick I think the Chivo wallet is, was a misallocation of resources and effort. I know that hindsight’s 2020, but generally speaking, I think just sort of just saying, Hey, you don’t have to pick capital gains on Bitcoin when you live.

Would’ve been sufficient. I think launching this like national campaign to, to launch a national wallet is, is was a waste of resources at best and, and had a lot of mal intent at worst because it signaled that he wanted people to use Bitcoin inside a Chibo, which is obviously, as we all know, not Bitcoin, it’s somebody else’s Bitcoin, it’s his Bitcoin.

He wanted people to use that system, which of course could be frozen and surveil just like the currency. So I’ve always said, you know, I’ve taught a bunch of Salvador how to use other wallets. And I know, I know he has to and everything great. But like I would nitpick about Chivo. I think Chivo the wrong way for governments to, to approach Bitcoin.

But in general, I’m not that I’m not that critical of how he’s approached Bitcoin. Sim. The price has gone down. I think it’s smart for the solvent or government to buy Bitcoin. I, I, I don’t have a lot of issues in this area. My issues are, are much more on the. Civil liberties front, but you know, I’ll let, I’ll let I’ll let you guys fill in.

[01:00:32] Q: Hi, may I present the same question to you just about specifically the Bitcoin rollout? What are your feelings, thoughts, both things he’s done successfully and things you are critical of BHAs Bitcoin

[01:00:42] Jamie Garcia: rollout. Yeah, no, I think, I think that Alex and I probably find a lot of common ground on this, you know, for me as a Bitcoin you know, I think that having your own Bitcoin in your, in, in a sovereign way in your, you know, cool storage is, is the way to go.

You know, again, I’m gonna point to mass those hierarchy of needs, you know, that’s when you’re at the self, self actualization stage for most selfs that’s. Where they are because it’s really hand to mouth. They, whatever they, they earn, they have to spend El Salva, there’s a high propensity to spend kind country Bitcoin parlance it’s time preference for sure.

But we have to have a low time preference in, in kind the, the benefits of, of the country adopting it. I’m not a huge fan of for sure. But as the law was designed, she was a necessity because the government had to provide the means for every citizen in the country to accept. Payment and, and automatically get it converted again.

That’s because I think that in some ways you, the government realized that a, of people not. So that conversion feature was a necessity. And so that’s what, that’s the primary reason why it, it, it was created right? The, the, the other part is that, you know, it’s because it had to facilitate merchants to be able to accept Bitcoin and again, convert it to us D and so, you know, it, and I think that the rollout it was quick maybe some more time would’ve been needed to get all the bugs out, which I think, you know, and I, I agree.

Would’ve probably been better received. But I think like, I, I think about you know, two terminologies in it waterfall and agile, right? I think this was an agile project where they rolled it out. They knew there was gonna be bugs. And then they would iterate based on user input as they went along.

And I think that since I’ve written a couple of articles documenting that it has gotten better. And but I think that, you know, because of the missteps and, and the rollout you know, people are. A little bit disenchanted. One of the things that I like about the law though, is that it provides the ability for the private sector to, to provide these services of auto conversion.

And I has a really job and beta that they have, have been lucky enough to test it. And it’s, it’s amazing. They use a synthetic dollar, which takes that volatility out. And so, but that’s one of the main reasons, the other, the other main reason why, and, and I, I would say, you know, I would disagree with Alex on this point was like miss allocation of money or poorly spent money.

It’s like, you know, El Salvador spends money in buy. Dollars from the federal reserves. It has service that it has to, you know, maintain that. Certo. So, you know, at some point, if it was gonna make Bitcoin legal tender in the country, it had to make a similar investment. Certo. And and I think that it, you know, there’s gonna be some people who are always gonna disagree and they’re always gonna think that that was a MIS of money, but at the same time, you know, that’s they actually, escrow provides that’s

[01:04:23] Q: of the two of you where I think we’ve fully established. That what we all agree on is Buka and El Salvador’s attempt to adopt Bitcoin is the right step. Some of his other actions are, I think, where we’re all. all four of us are in disagreement. And we’re just gonna go around the full circle cuz P and I have also somehow interjected and, and shared our opinions on this matter as well.

There’s no right or wrong answer, but I would like everyone to share how or why they are justifying or condemning what BKA has done outside of Bitcoin and how that could have an impact, either positive or negative on the greater adoption of Bitcoin. I will start because I threw a lot of words and probably made that question and statement a lot more complicated than it should I myself feel as though, while bouquet has taken some aggressive actions in this manner, while he has done things that by standards of United States law, we would condemn and he would be viewed as.

Close to, I would say almost a, a gang leader in which he condemns himself. I, however, do not feel as though these laws should be replicated and should be held accountable in every jurisdiction. I do think overall his steps towards Bitcoin are the right steps. I do question whether or not he actually understands Bitcoin and sees the grand potential of what Bitcoin can do.

I’ve always been long skeptical of politicians and he still falls into the camp of people that I quite frankly just think is saying Bitcoin, for the sake of garnering more eyeballs and attention for himself and his country he has done so quite successfully. If I may add, as we have pointed out, the tourism in El Salvador has spiked over the last two years to in large part to Bitcoiners themself, making this almost pilgrimage down south south of where I live at least.

My one caveat with this will always be he may be our, a hero today in the eyes of some and a villain in the eyes of others. But it’s on history to look back and judge this. Ultimately I think we can, we will just have to wait and allow a few more things to play out. My fear quite honestly, is countries like Russia countries like Iran leaders, like president bouquet, or even North Korea, those types of political leaders as viewed as by Western countries, G seven countries today.

If those are the countries that first adopt Bitcoin, the rest of the world will be much slower at adopting Bitcoin. But ultimately everyone I do believe will get there. I do think this is a speed bump. If we, if you will, in the global adoption of Bitcoin.

Hi, I present it to you next, Alex, and then P you will be the last one to share your opinion. So don’t fuck it up. P

[01:07:25] Jamie Garcia: sure thing. I mean, okay. So, you know, as a self owner, I do have my perspective and, and, and I, I do believe that Bitcoin, the right way to go. I have to keep presenting this to, you know, Bitcoin is all all over the world is that Bitcoin was not originally designed for Salvadorians, even with the Bitcoin law.

You know, the very first part of it is to attract investment into the country. You know, a country that exports very little that you know, has very little value add. We have beautiful people beautiful. Country for tourism that we wanna share with the world. And, and it’s a way to, you know, invite everybody in and kickstart the economy.

But it’s also a way to invest in the rising monetary system, as opposed to a declining one. El Salvador has been a dollarized country for several years now. And at a time when the dollar is in decline, you, it makes sense to make this just purely as a game theory mode. And I, that this is where I disagree with you a little bit Q where I believe understands more than he lets on.

He understands the game theory. He was tweeting about adopting Bitcoin back in 2017 when he was being blocked by the people that Alex actually empathize with now, from running for the presidency. E entao. You know, I think that what we have to understand also is that there, there is a process. There’s a process by which as more people come into the country, introduce Bitcoin.

People will begin to accept it beyond Sante, you know, and I would suggest this to Bitcoiners and people in general that are going there. Sim. Go and visit Chivera. He’s awesome. And Mike and everybody, the whole crew down there, but take some time to go to other places around the country, to the mountains, to, to lake GU and try to orange people there.

Because as people see that, you know, the currency that you wanna use is Bitcoin. They will begin to become more open and accepting it and they will see right now we’re in a bear market. Nobody wants it, but they will see that as we transit. Some of what you, some of the tips that you gave them, or some of the things that you bought from them will continue to rise and right.

And so I do have my, my belief, my, or my beliefs in my biases around the country. I think that one of the things that I would highlight is that, and I, I would never wish upon none of you

[01:10:11] Q: or Alex

[01:10:13] Jamie Garcia: is to know the fear of what it was like during the height of gang extortion, to get off the bus

[01:10:23] Q: and walk two

[01:10:23] Jamie Garcia: blocks from the bus, stop to your house at 9:00 PM at night, because you didn’t know if you were gonna make it alive.

That is a paralyzing feeling. And to experience it every day, the amount of cortisol that gets injected into your veins, not knowing if you’re gonna see your, your daughter, your sister, your mom and dad. I don’t wish that upon anybody. And that feeling is gone right now for most people. You know, if we go by the 80 20 rule, you know, and, and I know that a lot of libertarians will probably reject Jeremy Bentham’s views on utilitarianism, but the greatest goods for the, for, for the greatest amount of people, you know, that probably doesn’t jive well, but to get to that libertarian view, you have to sort of go through these steps where you have to do what’s best for most of the population, you know, at the, at the risk.

Of putting some of these folks that are really bad in jail. Now there’s still obvious Corpus right now. It’s just instead of 72 hours, it’s 15 days, you know? And so it, you know, some of the assertions that a Alex makes that people are jailed, indefinitely are, are wrong, but I would say that, you know, SA Salvadorians and, and they approve 90% notable killer, but on the measures that have been enacted to clean up and to offer them safety.

But otherwise I think that you know, I think Bitcoin’s the way, and we’ll see where it ends up. Let’s.

[01:12:22] Q: Thank you. Hi Alex.

[01:12:24] Alex Gladstein: Yeah. I mean, look, no one here’s arguing that Bitcoin’s not the way, obviously Bitcoin’s the way. I just think that we’re gonna go through a period of pretty intense global adoption of Bitcoin over the coming decade. All in my view, all governments and corporations are eventually gonna integrate or adopt it in some way.

It doesn’t mean we have to support those governments. A lot of them are gonna do it begrudgingly. A lot of them are gonna do it. You know, in a, in a way that’s sort of, opportunistic I think you can look at a lot of, and I’m, I’m not saying that El Salvador is as repressive as these states.

It’s it’s, it’s not, we should be very clear about that, but generally speaking throughout history, you’ve had. Very repressive states adopt good measures. You’ve had, for example, the Chinese communist party, you know, introduce more private property. Like that was great, but we didn’t like cheer the CCP, right?

The Cuban government introduced internet to the island 2017. The very, very good. It doesn’t mean I’m gonna go cheer for the Cuban government. The Saudi Arabian government introduced the right for women to drive. Muito bom. Doesn’t mean I’m gonna go cheer for them. I, I, I think we can observe what’s happening in El Salvador and, and, and visit and you should visit Elante is an incredible place without needing to cheer for the government.

I just don’t understand you have this all these Bitcoiners who are like cheering for the government to me, you know, makes very little sense. So again, we don’t disagree very much about Bitcoin here. It was of course the right choice. There’s deserve credit for that. It’s just about everything else he’s doing and, you know, I think what’s, what’s.

What’s been clear, is that what the people who are supporting bouquet try to do is they try to dismiss facts as not real or as false. So I’ll just remind the audience of a couple things that are, you know, incontrovertible like these things did happen. Um homem. Again, remember this government leader that you are, you know, some of you are currently simp sipping for to, to put it lightly, especially in the chat here.

It’s amazing. He detained tens of thousands of people after the COVID breakout in 2020 with, without any sort of due process currently in a war against gangs. He has issued a state of exception and there are more than 50,000, 50,000 people who’ve been detained without any sort of due process.

These are actual facts that are not fake. This is not fake news. This is real. More than 30 journalists and activists who are the most high profile ones had their phones sped on with Pegasus software. That’s real, that’s a fact, and there’s a proposed law that could come into effect soon that basically treats any, any organization in El Salvador that receives any sort of foreign support as a foreign agent, and then any, any incoming income from abroad gets taxed to the tune of 40%.

Another fact. And then finally, the biggest fact to me, the, the, the really the most jarring thing that changed my mind on all this cuz when I first reported this, I was kind of like, well, we’ll see what happens when it comes to his next term. That’s really what it’s gonna be all about. Is he, is he gonna do Ugo Chavez and, and try to change the change, the paradigm so he can rule for longer that that was the real key here and I expected it to happen in the next few years.

I did not expect it to happen in the near future. The fact that he did it last summer was just so brazen and aggressive. But yeah, I mean, he really got down right to business and he sacked the attorney general sacked, the Supreme court justices that he didn’t like, and he got them to go over a constitutional ban to allow him to run again.

And that’s really all you need to know about this guy. So I think we should focus on Bitcoin and on separating money from state and on providing Salvador the tools to use Bitcoin in a non-custodial manner. And we should stop cheering on this guy who is as sad to see has, has indoctrinated or, or, you know, basically like, one over, so many people in the Bitcoin community that really shouldn’t be cheering for governments.

But anyway ha thanks for having me.

[01:16:29] P: Yeah, I think I can, I I’ll jump in here and I think I’m a huge fan of El Salvador. I’m a huge fan of everything that you know, that is going on there in terms of the. Adoption of Bitcoin, but I, I, I will say I am surprised at how willing Bitcoiners are in general to put people on pedestals.

And I think that I definitely don’t have as negative of a view as I think Alex does, but I think that we need to be able to have these conversations critically about the policies and the actions that anyone is taking. Certo? The same things that we castigate the United States government for doing, I feel like somehow when there is a, a person involved who is very pro Bitcoin and positive for Bitcoin, The the larger Bitcoin community has a tendency to kind of give them a pass, especially when it’s, you know, complicated with you know, the fact that there are large governmental or sort of extra governmental organizations like the, we like the IMF actively attempting to sabotage those government’s efforts.

So it be, it does become a very complicated issue, but I think we really need to hold ourselves as Bitcoiners and as a Bitcoin community accountable for, for being able to critically evaluate all aspects of every situation and, and really be able to to have those kinds of these kinds of critical discussions without it being about like, are you pro Bitcoin or anti Bitcoin, cuz it’s not about that.

It it’s about being able to view the world as it really is and be realistic and have these meaningfu l conversations because it’s the only way that we can learn as Bitcoiners is the only way that we can is by engaging in these sometimes heated conversations. Então. That is my thought, Kim.

[01:18:16] Q: Yeah, I wanna, I wanna echo what P said.

Just the last part. Nothing else P ever says is valid anyways. Like the beautiful thing about Bitcoin as we continue to adopt and grow is there are gonna be a multitude of ideas and perspectives that come into place. And if we are not willing to have difficult conversations and disagree on certain facts, we’re, we’re not gonna grow.

We will just stagnate. And Bitcoin will, in my opinion, it will fail if we don’t accept the fact that if we do have global adoption of what, what’s the global population now, 8 billion people. I lose track every day, honestly, but that’s 8 billion different ideas. And I think we’re naive to think that everyone is gonna believe in Bitcoin the same way that we individually believe in it.

And so I appreciate both of you sharing your time and perspective today because these conversations are important. We don’t have to leave agreeing on things we can leave disagreeing. And frankly, I think we’re about to leave this conversation disagreeing on a lot more things than we walked in here agreeing on, but I do think it is important because you, we need to have these conversations.

I think the thing, the reason why I was inspired to reach out to each of you to ask you to join and have this conversation is because I, myself in hearing the story that I shared of Singapore, it rang so true to what I’m seeing in El Salvador. But of course there are so many more details in the story of Singapore’s growth, as well as what we’re bearing witness to in El Salvador that don’t get reported on fairly or justly and maybe get over exaggerated or just.

Misinformation is shared as a result in byproduct. What the truth is of what’s going on in El Salvador. I doubt any of the four of us know the whole entire truth, but maybe we could come up with some pieces of it. And from that can make judgements on our own. If this conversation was a conversation you enjoyed, or even just felt strongly and D disagreement with anything, myself, Jamie, Alex, or P has ever said I urge you to take that feeling and go down a rabbit hole, learn more DM me.

I don’t care. My DMS get blown up with so many scammers. I could use a DM or two from a real person. Tell me what you find that maybe I, I would be surprised I would disagree with or not. Cuz that is the point of this. That’s how we’re gonna hold this next iteration of politicians accountable is by having these hard conversations and then calling to question their actions.

Hi, Matt, I give you and then Alex final word each. And again, I really do thank you both for your time and your perspective in this discussion today.

[01:20:47] Jamie Garcia: Yeah, I just, you know, one of the things that we didn’t really actually get to dive deeply into is like how everything has been done by the rural law, by it democratically elected president and the demo critically elected Assembly.

I think that you know, I actually spent was, was hoping to get into that and spent some time last night talking to one of the authors of the Salvadorian constitution, which he, he had, its actually said that that reelection is possible that the judges were replaced according to, to the rule of law, according to, in, in the spirit of the, of the constitution.

And no rules were violated, of course, you know, and the funny thing is that, you know, this was done with their set of rules and, and and I think that that’s what stinks for a lot of them more, but you know, we’ll leave that for, for another time because I would love to, to really dive into that.

But what I really wanna say is that thanks, Alex. I think, you know, We probably have a lot more in common than, than, than we do. And, and contrast, you know, I myself left El Salvador because my human rights and my, my father’s human rights he paid a dear price were violated. So human rights are extremely important to me.

And so, but I understand the complexity of of the world. And and, and I understand that the dire situation that most Salvadorians found themselves because of the so I wanna thank you for having this conversation as well. And thank P Q for facilitating that. And the last thing that I wanna maybe say is is, or ask Alex is if you, if you participate in a stack chain yet,

[01:22:23] Alex Gladstein: no.

Wanna answer.

[01:22:35] Q: As far as participation in stack chain. Eu não tenho.

[01:22:40] P: I’ve not nor no, no. Nor

[01:22:43] Alex Gladstein: is Alex. Haven’t had the pleasure. Desculpe.

[01:22:46] P: No, no. It’s, it’s a random meme that people are trying to encouraging people to stack stats, even in the bear market. That’s basically what

[01:22:51] Alex Gladstein: it’s. Oh, well then. Claro. Sim. That’s a good idea.

Cool. Sim. Well, thanks guys. This has been a good conversation. I like what P said a lot. I, I, you know, again, I think we need to think adversarially and I’m surprised to see Bitcoiners put so many people on, on pedestals. I think we should try and help the Quinn adoption in El Salvador as much as we can.

And just, just, you know, be skeptical of what you hear out there. Sim. I mean the dominant narrative. And Bitcoin land is that, is that bouquet is this sort of like awesome, cool hip hero guy. It’s a lot more complicated than that. And at the end of the day, Bitcoin is very important, but it, it’s obviously only one aspect of life and it takes a lot of time to work.

I mean, we’re, we’re going through a very volatile process, obviously where Bitcoin has lost a lot of value in the last year. You know, this thing’s gonna take decades to really start to change the world and it’s begun its journey, but it’s gonna be a long, long time. And in the meantime, people have to deal with the reality of today.

And I’m just not convinced the way that bouquet is running his policy is, is, is, is the best way to go about doing things. But I think what, what, what he may said is is a fair, it’s a fair position to hold that, you know, we need to prioritize, you know, sort of law and order Over freedom. I just disagree.

So I guess we’ll see, we’ll see where that we’ll see where that goes. But yeah, I would encourage everyone to continue to support Salvadorians support Bitcoin adoption there and, and continue to stack. And we’ll see you around.

[01:24:31] Q: Thank you both. Thank you to our audience on all platforms for tuning in, please, please, please.

If you are not yet subscribed to our channel smash, the subscribe button down below, over there on YouTube or up there on rumble. That’s a wrap guys that is our episode for today. Tomorrow we will be back with another exclusive special report with a special guest joining us. Tickets for Bitcoin Amsterdam are on sale.

The Bitcoin print magazine is available. At your local Barnes and Nobles at your local indigo over in Canada, available the Bitcoin magazine store as well. Use promo code BM live to get 10% off. That’s a wrap. We’ll be back tomorrow.

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